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#Post#: 1556--------------------------------------------------
The New Covenant
By: Kerry Date: April 27, 2015, 1:48 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
From another thread:
[quote author=Helen link=topic=162.msg1548#msg1548
date=1430147615]
If the covenant was cut between us and God it would be
so...thankfully 'the better covenant' was cut between God and
His Son, ...on our behalf.
That is how I see, read, understand and believe it to be.
[/quote]
I'd say someone has misled you, Helen. A covenant applies only
to the people making it; and the new covenant is with Israel.
Jeremiah 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make
with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I
will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their
hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
Hebrews 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the
house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my
laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will
be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
Hebrews 10:16 This is the covenant that I will make with them
after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their
hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
No covenant is made without the shedding of blood.
For a Gentile or even a Jew to become a spiritual child of
Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, he must spill some blood himself.
In the Old Testament, they spilled physical blood and
circumcised boys physically. In the New Testament, it's the
heart that is circumcised -- and the spiritual blood of the
person is thus shed. People may think it was enough for Jesus
to shed his blood; but to enter the Body of Christ, everyone
must be willing to make sacrifice himself of his heart. He must
be willing to shed his own blood spiritually. . . and possibly
physically too.
God wants some sacrifices from us.
Psalm 51:17 The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: a broken
and a contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise.
Will our own sacrifices save us? No. But forming covenant
with Jesus will because after making covenant, the two who make
covenant are considered one. Since we are part of him, we are
saved. The old "self" is no more. The Christian becomes a new
person, having sacrificed the old carnal one.
We cannot cling to the old carnal nature and expect Jesus to
save us. But he can and will save us if we are willing to
become the Bride of Christ and become part of the Body of
Christ. Then the Spiritual Blood saves us.
We must be willing to give up some things just the way a woman
gives up things to marry. She can't be thinking of other men
all the time and going out with them.
Matthew 6:24 No man can serve two masters: for either he will
hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the
one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.
Covenants are binding only on the parties who make them. The
person who is not willing to circumcise his heart is not part of
the New Covenant. He must be willing to crucify that old
carnal nature.
Matthew 10:38 And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth
after me, is not worthy of me.
Romans 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him,
that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we
should not serve sin.
Galatians 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live;
yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now
live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who
loved me, and gave himself for me.
We cannot be like Ananias and Sapphira wanting to take but not
to give. That story was about a physical piece of land; but its
message is spiritual. Spiritually, the members of the Body of
Christ own everything in common. We cannot expect Jesus to be
crucified so we can escape guilty and unscathed ourselves. We
must be willing to stop being guilty. It is also correct to
say the world is crucified since the saint is willing to put
the carnal things of this world on the cross.
Galatians 6:14 But God forbid that I should glory, save in the
cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified
unto me, and I unto the world.
It is by becoming one with Jesus and our being willing to let go
of our old nature that the Blood of Christ works. If we are not
willing to give up the old nature, we are like a woman who wants
a rich man to support her if marries him but who also still
wants to commit adultery. We must cleave either to God or to
mammon --just as a woman must decide to be faithful to her
husband or try to enjoy affairs with other men. We can't do
both.
#Post#: 1558--------------------------------------------------
Re: The New Covenant
By: Kerry Date: April 27, 2015, 2:06 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
I think I agree with what the Catechism says of it. While I
don't always agree with the Catholic positions, I find their
position on this is in line with how I read the Scriptures as
well as my personal experiences.
HTML http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p123a9p2.htm
-------------------------------------
The Church is the Bride of Christ
796 The unity of Christ and the Church, head and members of one
Body, also implies the distinction of the two within a personal
relationship. This aspect is often expressed by the image of
bridegroom and bride. The theme of Christ as Bridegroom of the
Church was prepared for by the prophets and announced by John
the Baptist. The Lord referred to himself as the "bridegroom."
The Apostle speaks of the whole Church and of each of the
faithful, members of his Body, as a bride "betrothed" to Christ
the Lord so as to become but one spirit with him. The Church is
the spotless bride of the spotless Lamb. "Christ loved the
Church and gave himself up for her, that he might sanctify her."
He has joined her with himself in an everlasting covenant and
never stops caring for her as for his own body:
This is the whole Christ, head and body, one formed from many .
. . whether the head or members speak, it is Christ who speaks.
He speaks in his role as the head (ex persona capitis) and in
his role as body (ex persona corporis). What does this mean?
"The two will become one flesh. This is a great mystery, and I
am applying it to Christ and the Church." And the Lord himself
says in the Gospel: "So they are no longer two, but one flesh."
They are, in fact, two different persons, yet they are one in
the conjugal union, . . . as head, he calls himself the
bridegroom, as body, he calls himself "bride."
#Post#: 1559--------------------------------------------------
Re: The New Covenant
By: Helen Date: April 27, 2015, 2:48 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
Wow Kerry, you packed so much into that first post! :)
You said ( on the other thread) Do we agree then that we are not
forgiven unless we repent?
I'm not sure about how some people look at this. Some people
seem to think we can ask for forgiveness without repenting. I
don't think that works.
Hence I then said what I said.
As I see it, and this is just me...No matter how long we live we
can never, never, never by changing, deciding, crying, fasting
or anything else become perfect enough for union with Him in
glory.
As I say..this is just my own experience and studying.
I first heard the message about " death to the self nature" the
carnal nature being put to death over 40 years ago.
Am I any closer to perfection today ..NO.
You wrote:- [quote]Since we are part of him, we are saved. The
old "self" is no more. The Christian becomes a new person,
having sacrificed the old carnal one.
We cannot cling to the old carnal nature and expect Jesus to
save us. But he can and will save us if we are willing to
become the Bride of Christ and become part of the Body of
Christ. Then the Spiritual Blood saves us. [/quote]
[size=14pt]
I am convinced that salvation has nothing to do with us or our
works. He died for us before the salvation of the world. I had
nothing to do with it...except one day the Holy Spirit opened my
eyes and I SAW what God and Jesus had done, and He put a desire
in my heart to be a part of it and Him, as I saw the love for me
and mankind poured out. A turning from the old ways and old
life. That was my part..He did everything else.
Do we do good works and kind things..YES, not because we have to
in earning anything, but because we have Him inside and we now
are desiring to.
I can see what you are saying when you say 'we must sacrifice
our heart' ( spiritual blood) I have to disagree that it has
anything to do with salvation (HIS BLOOD WAS MORE THAN ENOUGH..)
other than the end result of WHERE we dwell in the new Kingdom
with Him...and our proof of our LOVE ( Bridehood) I believe we
are saved, yet also "working out our own salvation with fear and
trembling" Who wants to be left ion the back forty when all the
good things is happening elsewhere!!
This to me is sonship, this to me is the overcoming. Not that we
can physically or even spiritually " arrive" ..but in our very
heart and being running after Him with everything we have, and
hold the vision. He is the only thing worth while.
I can't agree that "God wants sacrifice from us"...He shall see
of the travail of His soul, and shall be satisfied: .... He
shall bear their iniquities. He desires our full ' love!' And
maybe love for some is a sacrifice. Worship and love are
entwined. If out time is a sacrifice, then yes I can see that
too. He just wants US!
You said " It is by becoming one with Jesus and our being
willing to let go of our old nature that the Blood of Christ
works. If we are not willing to give up the old nature, we are
like a woman who wants a rich man to support her if marries him
but who also still wants to commit adultery.
The blood of Christ work whether we let go of the old nature or
not. It only work effectively for us when we let go and allow
Him full sway in our life. I am one who believes that when God
looks at us..He looks at us through the blood of Christ...all
sin is hidden from Him. "We are dead and our life is hide with
Christ in God."
I do think we must se the difference of our position in Christ
and our experience in Christ. If we don't have a firm grip of
who we are in Christ, positionally, we will never make it to the
end. We would be too devastated that everything we do, we still
mess up...we find the carnal man is still very alive and well
within.
"RECKON yourselves dead in deed to sin and alive to Christ.."
Does that mean we just eat drink and be merry? Could well
be...BUT we will miss out on the final glory of being one with
the Bridegroom.
We probably ( and obviously) differ on many things. I for one do
not believe "everyone" will make it into the Bride. That is one
reason we keep our head down and RUN without losing focus.
Many as Paul shows ( and feared lest he was) are
'castaways'...lost? = no...but they "miss the mark" they don't
hit the end goal.
My best will never be enough...as I have said before...God
measures heart...desired...truth in the inward parts.
2 Cor "For if there be first a willing mind, it is accepted
according to that a man hath, and not according to that he hath
not. I throw my heart and soul into what Jesus has done for me.
The covenant cut on my behalf, as I am "in Him."
"For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was
counted unto him for righteousness."
Right back to faith again. Is it totally 100% locked into the
finished work of Christ. And do I daily trust Him to speak ,
teach, lead , and guide me along the righteous path, and to pick
me up when I fall...which is still too often. "If we walk in the
light, as He is in the light, we have fellowship one with
another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son[u] cleanseth us
from all sin.[/u]
We need to stay on the path of light the David wrote about..'His
word is a lamp unto our feet and a light unto our path.' and the
Blood does it effective work in our lives.
I'd better stop.
I am sure there are loads of spelling and typo mistakes...but I
forgot to eat and I must eat before I run out of time...sorry.
#Post#: 1560--------------------------------------------------
Re: The New Covenant
By: Kerry Date: April 27, 2015, 4:47 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Helen link=topic=170.msg1559#msg1559
date=1430164122]
Wow Kerry, you packed so much into that first post! :)
You said ( on the other thread) Do we agree then that we are not
forgiven unless we repent?
I'm not sure about how some people look at this. Some people
seem to think we can ask for forgiveness without repenting. I
don't think that works.
Hence I then said what I said.
As I see it, and this is just me...No matter how long we live we
can never, never, never by changing, deciding, crying, fasting
or anything else become perfect enough for union with Him in
glory.
As I say..this is just my own experience and studying.
I first heard the message about " death to the self nature" the
carnal nature being put to death over 40 years ago.
Am I any closer to perfection today ..NO.[/quote]
Something is not being changed daily then. You are not saying
with Paul, "I die daily." Perhaps you are but don't see
it?[quote]
You wrote:-
I am convinced that salvation has nothing to do with us or our
works. He died for us before the salvation of the world. I had
nothing to do with it...except one day the Holy Spirit opened my
eyes and I SAW what God and Jesus had done, and He put a desire
in my heart to be a part of it and Him, as I saw the love for me
and mankind poured out. A turning from the old ways and old
life. That was my part..He did everything else.
Do we do good works and kind things..YES, not because we have to
in earning anything, but because we have Him inside and we now
are desiring to. [/quote]
I agree with your idea that Jesus wants us to turn from the old
ways. That is repentance, is it not?
Let us put that idea about earning things behind us. I'm not
saying anyone can earn anything; but I am saying there are
conditions. It does have with good works. God wants us to do
good works when we are able; and when he has made it possible
for us to do them, can we say, "I won't do the good I could do
because I could never do enough to earn salvation"? That
would be like a child saying to his parents, "I won't visit you,
I won't call you, I won't do anything for you because you did so
much for me and I know I can never repay you." It doesn't make
sense.
[quote]I can see what you are saying when you say 'we must
sacrifice our heart' ( spiritual blood) I have to disagree that
it has anything to do with salvation (HIS BLOOD WAS MORE THAN
ENOUGH..) other than the end result of WHERE we dwell in the new
Kingdom with Him...and our proof of our LOVE ( Bridehood) I
believe we are saved, yet also "working out our own salvation
with fear and trembling" Who wants to be left ion the back forty
when all the good things is happening elsewhere!!
This to me is sonship, this to me is the overcoming. Not that we
can physically or even spiritually " arrive" ..but in our very
heart and being running after Him with everything we have, and
hold the vision. He is the only thing worth while.[/quote]God is
not going to save people against their free will. He is not
going to force us to become more like Him if we don't want to.
How can God glorify us if we want to cling to the darkness?
We know what God wants from us. He wants us to love our
neighbors. We may not be able to repay God or give Him
anything He didn't already have; but we can make life better for
His other children.
[quote]I can't agree that "God wants sacrifice from us"...He
shall see of the travail of His soul, and shall be satisfied:
.... He shall bear their iniquities. He desires our full '
love!' And maybe love for some is a sacrifice. Worship and love
are entwined. If out time is a sacrifice, then yes I can see
that too. He just wants US! [/quote]What God wants us to give
up as a sacrifice is what injures us. How can God or anyone
else bear my iniquities if I want them myself and intend to keep
committing them? No, we must be willing to give up the things
that burden us and make us unworthy.
Matthew 11:28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy
laden, and I will give you rest.
You say God wants our full love. That could make God sound
selfish. "Love me and hate your neighbor, and I'll still
forgive you -- just tell me you love me." This cannot be
right; and we read:
1 John 4:20 If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he
is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen,
how can he love God whom he hath not seen?
We are fooling ourselves if we think we can offend against the
Law of Love and sin against our neighbor and still skate by by
telling God we love Him or convincing ourselves we do. Yes,
I believe God loves me; but I think He loves His other children
too. I can't treat them like scum and expect God to be pleased
with me because I flatter Him by telling Him I love Him.
I have known Christians -- and I don't mean you or any other
member here -- I have met people -- who treated other people
nasty; and I expect they told God they loved Him; and I expect
they may even have apologized to God for their bad behavior, but
they never took steps to repair anything with the people they
sinned against. Those people got worse over time, more bitter,
more racked with guilt while pretending they were all square
with God.
I agree that God wants us to love Him; but His motive for that
is we'll be better off if we do. That will make Him happy.
[quote]You said " It is by becoming one with Jesus and our being
willing to let go of our old nature that the Blood of Christ
works. If we are not willing to give up the old nature, we are
like a woman who wants a rich man to support her if marries him
but who also still wants to commit adultery.
The blood of Christ work whether we let go of the old nature or
not. It only work effectively for us when we let go and allow
Him full sway in our life. I am one who believes that when God
looks at us..He looks at us through the blood of Christ...all
sin is hidden from Him. "We are dead and our life is hide with
Christ in God."[/quote]
This doesn't make sense to me, Helen. Think about it. How can
Jesus have "full sway" in our lives if we are clinging to the
old nature and refuse to repent and change when the Spirit shows
us?
I don't believe God plays games with sin. We should not want
our sins hidden. We should want them erased, done away with.
They are not "covered up" with God pretending we're saints when
in fact we're not. Until we change, our sins are hidden from
God, yes; and that is the role of Jesus as intercessor. He can
see our flaws. He can bear the burden of them until they are
fixed; and he can reveal to us through the Spirit what we need
to know to change for the better. When Jesus erases all our
sins, then we are reconciled with God.
What was once darkness become light; and what once was evil
becomes good. It's not a pretend thing at all with God saying,
"I know you're guilty; but I'll pretend you're not." That
would make God a liar, wouldn't it?
The goal is to make us guilt-free. Satan was right to accuse
Joshua the High Priest. He had dirty clothes. God did not
pretend Joshua's clothes were pure white. He didn't try to
cover anything up. The solution was to give him new clothes.
He was no longer guilty then; and Satan's charge became false.
He was justified -- made right, made just -- in fact, not
pretend.
[quote]I do think we must se the difference of our position in
Christ and our experience in Christ. If we don't have a firm
grip of who we are in Christ, positionally, we will never make
it to the end. We would be too devastated that everything we do,
we still mess up...we find the carnal man is still very alive
and well within.
"RECKON yourselves dead in deed to sin and alive to
Christ.."[/quote]First you reckon it, and then you do it. If you
reckon one thing and go do another, that's being double minded.
You would think me mad if I said, "I reckon I'll go the grocery
store now," and then went to bed to sleep.
[quote]Does that mean we just eat drink and be merry? Could well
be...BUT we will miss out on the final glory of being one with
the Bridegroom.
We probably ( and obviously) differ on many things. I for one do
not believe "everyone" will make it into the Bride. That is one
reason we keep our head down and RUN without losing focus.
Many as Paul shows ( and feared lest he was) are
'castaways'...lost? = no...but they "miss the mark" they don't
hit the end goal.
My best will never be enough...as I have said before...God
measures heart...desired...truth in the inward parts.
2 Cor "For if there be first a willing mind, it is accepted
according to that a man hath, and not according to that he hath
not. I throw my heart and soul into what Jesus has done for me.
The covenant cut on my behalf, as I am "in Him." [/quote]
You are saying here on one hand that you are "in Him" -- meaning
you are part of the Body of Christ; but on the other hand, you
seem to be denying you are part of any covenant Jesus the Head
of the Body made.
There also comes a time when we move past what Jesus did for us
and go on to other things to build on that foundation. I'm not
sure throwing all our hearts and souls into what Jesus has done
for us is what he wants. We accept that and then move on.
Hebrews 6:1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of
Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the
foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward
God,
That verse has horrified some people; but I agree with it
wholeheartedly. If it's true that you aren't closer to
perfection today than you were years ago, give it a try:
Leave that doctrine about what Jesus did for us behind. Accept
it and move on.
Again I'm not speaking about you personally or anyone else here;
but I get the feeling that sometimes people never move past the
"doctrine of Christ" because they still feel soiled inside.
They're still spinning their wheels since they feel bad or maybe
even guilty inside, don't feel forgiven -- but they're still
trying to apply the logic of how Christ died for our sins. It
doesn't seem to be working for them. I don't think it ever
will work really -- if people don't repent, they aren't going to
feel forgiven. To me, it's that simple. I don't think a
belief in a "magical fix" is going to work; and I know what
works for me. I feel forgiven when I'm truly sorry and repent.
I'm sorry enough too to try to do my best to repair any damage I
did even if I can't fix it all.
[quote]"For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and
it was counted unto him for righteousness."
Right back to faith again. Is it totally 100% locked into the
finished work of Christ. And do I daily trust Him to speak ,
teach, lead , and guide me along the righteous path, and to pick
me up when I fall...which is still too often. "If we walk in the
light, as He is in the light, we have fellowship one with
another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanseth us from
all sin. [/quote]
I ask if God use real numbers or fake ones in His books?
That very verse is the beginning of the passage where God makes
covenant with Abraham. We see Abraham shedding blood here --
just as he did not "hold back" Isaac. God required something
from Abraham. Let us not think then that Abraham's
righteousness was imaginary and not real. The proper kind of
faith leads to the proper kind of deeds.
Genesis 6:6 And he believed in the Lord; and he counted it to
him for righteousness.
7 And he said unto him, I am the Lord that brought thee out of
Ur of the Chaldees, to give thee this land to inherit it.
8 And he said, Lord God, whereby shall I know that I shall
inherit it?
9 And he said unto him, Take me an heifer of three years old,
and a she goat of three years old, and a ram of three years old,
and a turtledove, and a young pigeon.
10 And he took unto him all these, and divided them in the
midst, and laid each piece one against another: but the birds
divided he not.
11 And when the fowls came down upon the carcases, Abram drove
them away.
12 And when the sun was going down, a deep sleep fell upon
Abram; and, lo, an horror of great darkness fell upon him.
. . .
18 In the same day the Lord made a covenant with Abram, saying,
Unto thy seed have I given this land, from the river of Egypt
unto the great river, the river Euphrates:
What was that "horror of great darkness"? For my money, it's
the same darkness that fell when Jesus was on the Cross.
Other parallels are there too. Abraham's covenant there was
efficacious on behalf of his offspring. Jesus' covenant is
efficacious too for his offspring; but mind now, the sons of God
do not behave like the Devil, let us not deceive ourselves.
1 John 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil
sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was
manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
Let us not imagine that Jesus' mission was to save us so we
could keep on doing the works of the Devil. Jesus wants far
better for us than that. The Blood of Christ can destroy
utterly the works of the Devil, not merely conceal them from
sight. But we must be willing to do our part, do what we can.
We must be in agreement with God. If we are not willing to do
anything at all when we can, I don't think we're being sincere
by saying, "Jesus did it all." We risk becoming unfaithful
servants who will be punished.
[quote]We need to stay on the path of light the David wrote
about..'His word is a lamp unto our feet and a light unto our
path.' and the Blood does it effective work in our lives.
[/quote]I agree with this. If we fail to walk so and rebel, I
don't see how anything can work out right.
It seems to me we can try to fool ourselves by making concepts
like "faith" and "righteousness" into mere ideas in our minds
that never change anything in a real way. If we have the
right ideas in our minds, we can apply them in reality. They
don't remain mere ideas. "Faith without works is dead."
#Post#: 1578--------------------------------------------------
Re: The New Covenant
By: Helen Date: April 28, 2015, 10:16 am
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote]Something is not being changed daily then. You are not
saying with Paul, "I die daily." Perhaps you are but don't see
it?[/quote]
I guess we are still talking about the difference between
position and walking truth. What I was rambling on about is
nothing 'I do' has changed 'me' one jot. I am still the old me.
( and still the unsure, scared, child within) It is only in
Him, and what He did, that makes 'me' any different before God.
The old nature is still the old nature. We can only crucify the
flesh by a choice of 'not my will but yours.' That doesn't
change 'the me' it just make my flesh null and void as I choose
His life over mine daily.
[quote]God is not going to save people against their free will.
He is not going to force us to become more like Him if we don't
want to. How can God glorify us if we want to cling to the
darkness?
We know what God wants from us. He wants us to love our
neighbors. We may not be able to repay God or give Him
anything He didn't already have; but we can make life better for
His other children.
[/quote]
I don't read anywhere , where God asked any man if he wanted to
be born with the taint of Adam's sin and condemned to death!
Everyone came in under the first Adam , why is it such a far
reach to say the everyone comes in under the Second Adam?
[quote]It's not a pretend thing at all with God saying, "I know
you're guilty; but I'll pretend you're not." That would make
God a liar, wouldn't it? [/quote]
No, we are not guilty in the sight of God. Jesus took it. All of
it. The axe was laid to the root. The sin of the world (
inherited via Adam) was dealt with once and for all. The Last
Lamb was slain.
"sins" missing the mark, on the other had still abound...as you
say, whatever transgresses the love of God...'love God , love
neighbour'. One is to do with salvation. One is to do with how
we live and our stewardship as we pass through here. "Sin's"
don't change our salvation, but they have everything to do with
our future inheritance.
[quote]First you reckon it, and then you do it. If you reckon
one thing and go do another, that's being double minded. You
would think me mad if I said, "I reckon I'll go the grocery
store now," and then went to bed to sleep.
[/quote]
That is the daily struggle...always reckoning ourselves dead
indeed unto sin...therefore being declared righteous as He says
we are. The only 'doing' is the reckoning of, and living there.
We don't 'do' anything else.( for it) But we then , because I
am righteous by His declaration I/we DESIRE to live free from
committing
"sin's" that hurt my neighbour, myself or my God. Now we are
again talking inheritance not salvation.
I don't think we do 'cling to the old nature'...but it will
stick to us as Peter Pan's shadow, until the very end of time,
it will always be there for us to choose...every day will be a
choice. A choice to refuse. We just have to continually see it
as He sees it...dead. And when it raises it's ugly head we say-
" Oh it just you, you are no longer 'me'. Easier said than
done...but it must be done if we are to end up in Revelation in
the group of the Overcomers and receive the full inheritance.
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