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#Post#: 1644--------------------------------------------------
Re: God's goodness ...
By: HappyHeretic Date: April 30, 2015, 3:56 am
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[quote author=Kerry link=topic=160.msg1640#msg1640
date=1430353835]
How a man died from a sickness that is treatable by doctors.
There's no guarantee that doctors would have cured him; but what
is clear to me is he wasn't willing to let them try. He stuck
to his ideas about what God should do for him and he died.
Then his grieving wife could afford their house; and finally
someone came to evict her. That too probably could have been
avoided if her husband had gotten medical attention. Then his
rotting body was discovered let his body while she stuck to her
ideas that God would resurrect him.
These things are the result of delusion. Stubbornness too in
sticking to beliefs when you can see they're not true. And add
arrogance to the mix as well for such people believe they know
what to expect from God since the know His Mind so well. They
are like little children who think candy is good and brushing
your teeth is bad -- and the children say, "If you love me,
you'll buy me more candy and you won't make me brush my teeth."
What will it take for them to learn?
These people were not praying to God. They had a substitute, an
idol, whom they trusted to save them and their idol did not.
Their faith in their idol led to disaster since their idol also
told them not to help themselves and not to allow other humans
to help. It may not be God's Will to heal everyone right now;
but I'd say some demon was taking delight in seeing the
suffering and dying he caused by filling their minds with
delusions.
This was the work of the Devil -- and they thought they were
good Christians. If God had wanted to heal the man, how could
He have when the man was asking a demon for help?
[/quote]
I'm reminded of a saying about law which I think has some
relevance :
"Laws created as a result of bad cases lead to bad law".
That the person acted unwisely does not make what I'm saying
untrue.
A simple question for you, Kerry: when I say that Jesus
revealed the Father to us, do you believe that to be the truth?
Mike HM
#Post#: 1645--------------------------------------------------
Re: God's goodness ...
By: HappyHeretic Date: April 30, 2015, 4:06 am
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A dead raising from history:
Martin of Tours (316-397) raised at least three people from the
dead in his lifetime. The first was in Ligugé, where one of
Martin’s companions came down with an intense fever and died.
Martin was away, and when he returned on the third day, found
his friend dead and ready for burial.
Grieved, he sent his disciples out of the room and locked the
door. Martin laid down on the body of his friend as Elisha had
and began to pray. After two hours of consistent prayer, the
limbs of the dead man began to stir. Suddenly, the man’s eyes
opened half way, and he began to blink at the brightness of the
light coming through the window, raised from the dead.
Mike HM
#Post#: 1647--------------------------------------------------
Re: God's goodness ...
By: Kerry Date: April 30, 2015, 6:28 am
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[quote author=HereticMouse link=topic=160.msg1644#msg1644
date=1430384185]
I'm reminded of a saying about law which I think has some
relevance :
"Laws created as a result of bad cases lead to bad law".
That the person acted unwisely does not make what I'm saying
untrue.[/quote]What it does show is how gullible some people
are.
[quote]A simple question for you, Kerry: when I say that Jesus
revealed the Father to us, do you believe that to be the
truth?[/quote]That may not be as simple a question as you may
think, and my answer may offend you. I'd rather quote the
Bible.
Luke 10:22 All things are delivered to me of my Father: and no
man knoweth who the Son is, but the Father; and who the Father
is, but the Son, and he to whom the Son will reveal him.
#Post#: 1649--------------------------------------------------
Re: God's goodness ...
By: Piper Date: April 30, 2015, 10:53 am
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[quote]So, is this two people who have failed to see God heal
them or a loved one setting their theology on their
circumstances or His Word and character?
Sorry to be blunt, but it seems like it to me.
Put it alongside the Father that Jesus revealed - one who healed
everyone who came to Him - and your theology does not match the
Bible, nor does it match the character og God that Jesus
revealed to us.
I actually think the church has been sold a lie that God doesn't
heal. I've heard pastors saying that the comfort sick and dying
people with the notion that to be sick is sharing in Jesus
suffering. However encouraing that may be, it is a lie and
propgated by ministers who were unable to get people healed.
If Isaiah 53 is right - there is forgiveness for all our sins
and, I suggest, healing for all our sicknesses in the atonement.
If there is not healing for all sicknesses, then nor is there
forgiveness for all sins.
Kindest regards,
Mike HM[/quote]
[font=trebuchet ms]
Are you sick, Mike HM? I wonder. Les Jude, who preached
healing, preached it adamantly, without mercy to others, until
the day he died, and he never let on that he, himself, was sick.
Brother Dewayne, whom we all loved, spoke of the healing he was
expecting until the day he died, so I can only assume he found
his healing in death.
My husband is very sick, can no longer walk without a great deal
of assistance, has no stamina, none, and I am left alone to do
more on this farm than I can possibly manage. I believe Jesus
can heal, but what shall my conclusion be when healing does not
come? I continue to hope and to pray, even as I comfort him and
wipe away his tears of frustration. I crawl into bed beside him
and hold him, praying that God honor our vows, even as we have
honored them since we met as teens, and made ourselves one. All
of our memories, through so many years, are shared; there is no
one else who could ever share that bond with me--a lifetime
lived together. Who will remind me of times I forget? Who will
take care of me if I get sick and healing does not come?
Your words taunt, although perhaps you know not what you do. If
this ugly disease without end continues to debilitate my
husband, and if it, eventually, after much, much suffering for
us both, kills the one I love, shall I then believe, as you have
said above, that there is also no forgiveness for sin?
Do you wish to steal hope and joy, as this disease steals hope
and joy?
You know nothing of my struggles, my "theology". My prayers and
fears and how deep I must search myself for courage to face this
future and not give up.
You should really give some consideration to the damage your
words may cause to those who already have a full cup.
As you have said: Sorry to be blunt.
I think that what you mean for good might be used for evil.
Very seriously. You need to think about that.
Now, I will go tend my life and one million things and I will
believe Jesus to be the hero of our story, the One who rescues
all I love-- though we know not when or even if it is in this
lifetime. I will trust Him and His heart, because I know He is
kind and good, though this world is not. I will continue to wait
for Him. I am weary beyond imagining, my heart and my body
hurts, but I will do my damdest to believe despite circumstance,
because that is what so many, many, many people must do.[/font]
#Post#: 1650--------------------------------------------------
Re: God's goodness ...
By: A nonny mouse Date: April 30, 2015, 3:31 pm
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[quote author=Piper link=topic=160.msg1649#msg1649
date=1430409222]
Now, I will go tend my life and one million things and I will
believe Jesus to be the hero of our story, the One who rescues
all I love-- though we know not when or even if it is in this
lifetime.
[/quote]
Such incredible faith in the face of such incredible suffering.
The sun (in all its forms) shines on the good or on the evil, on
the deserving or on the undeserving, without distinction.
#Post#: 1655--------------------------------------------------
Re: God's goodness ...
By: HappyHeretic Date: May 1, 2015, 5:33 am
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[quote author=Kerry link=topic=160.msg1647#msg1647
date=1430393338]
That may not be as simple a question as you may think, and my
answer may offend you. I'd rather quote the Bible.
[/quote]
Short of personal abuse, I doubt that anything you say will
offend me.
[quote]
Luke 10:22 All things are delivered to me of my Father: and no
man knoweth who the Son is, but the Father; and who the Father
is, but the Son, and he to whom the Son will reveal him.
[/quote]
Would you care to elaborate on what you understand that to mean
in relation to my question?
Thanks,
Mike HM
#Post#: 1656--------------------------------------------------
Re: God's goodness ...
By: HappyHeretic Date: May 1, 2015, 6:04 am
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[quote author=Piper link=topic=160.msg1649#msg1649
date=1430409222]
[size=12pt][font=trebuchet ms]
Are you sick, Mike HM? [/quote]
Not that I think it matters, but I have an incurable, though
treatable condition that will in all probability take me early
and before it takes me, will cause me to be blind. My sight is
going already. However, I'm not in any pain.
I have seen people healed when I pray and when others pray -
Randy Clark and Bill Johnson regularly see surgical metal
disappear from peoples bodies and I have been in meetings where
that has happened with Randy, twice, though I have yet to
receive healing myself.
That said, I am convinced it is always God's will to heal. This
is a theological position, and not yet a worked out practical
reality. It doesn't mean that the theology is wrong.
The quote from Tyler that started this thread is interesting,
and I knew it would be difficult to accept by some. I believe
it to be true. If God always wants to heal - as Jesus clearly
(to me at least) demonstrated, and even He wats to heal people
now - as Jesus *never* told anyone to wait for their healing or
that their healing was part of the suffering that must be gone
through etc - and if His healing flows out from His love and
goodness (which everything God does does), then to wonder what
God's will is regarding a specific healing situation is, Tyler
suggests and I tend to agree with him, to not understand the
fullness of God's love and goodness.
That people are sick and people close to us are sick, does not
change that. If it did, our theology would not be built on a
firm foundation like the life of Jesus and how He reveals the
Father to us.
You say I don't know your theology - I would say that your posts
in this thread and others reveal your theology, so whilst I
don't know much about your theology I do know some.
One thing you posted in this thread:
[quote]Who dares proclaim to understand the will of God?[/quote]
is interesting when read alongside "he made known to us the
mystery of his will according to his good pleasure, which he
purposed in Christ,"
Also, in an evangelistic context, if a preacher preaches and has
an altar call and people respond, we are pretty certain it is
God will for them to get saved. So knowing God's will is
possible.
It has been said that one cannot pray a prayer of faith unless
the will of God is know for that situation. A prayer that
includes the phrase "if it be Thy will ... " is not a prayer of
faith. So, in order to pray effective faith-full prayers we
must know the will of God.
Thankfully, Jesus revealed God's heart for healing all to us.
Kind regards,
Mike HM
#Post#: 1658--------------------------------------------------
Re: God's goodness ...
By: HappyHeretic Date: May 1, 2015, 6:25 am
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[quote author=A Trusting Deist link=topic=160.msg1650#msg1650
date=1430425897]
[size=12pt]Such incredible faith in the face of such incredible
suffering.
/size]
[/quote]
Indeed. Faith and faithfulness.
Mike HM
#Post#: 1659--------------------------------------------------
Re: God's goodness ...
By: Kerry Date: May 1, 2015, 6:55 am
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[quote author=HereticMouse link=topic=160.msg1655#msg1655
date=1430476391]
Short of personal abuse, I doubt that anything you say will
offend me.[/quote]
I had an answer typed out but decided not to post it. I'll rely
again on the Scriptures.
Ephesians 5:20 Giving thanks always for all things unto God and
the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ;
Romans 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good
to them that love God, to them who are the called according to
his purpose.
#Post#: 1661--------------------------------------------------
Re: God's goodness ...
By: Amadeus Date: May 1, 2015, 8:48 am
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[quote author=HereticMouse link=topic=160.msg1407#msg1407
date=1429868875]
A good indicator that a person isn’t totally
convinced that God is good is revealed when they second
guess if it is God’s will to heal, to save, to give mercy, to
bless, to protect, and to raise the dead. Faith is impossible
unless the will of God is known, and the knowledge of the
will of God comes from a revelation of His complete and
total goodness. If you question that it is God’s will to
always do the things mentioned a few sentences above,
your deficiently is simple; You do not yet understand His
goodness.
-- Tyler Johnson
Mike HM
[/quote]
[font=courier]I haven't read every single word in this thread
carefully, but for the most part it moves from the general
doubts of some people in the goodness of God expressed by the
above quotation to more interest in whether or not everyone can
be or should be healed according the will of God.
Some pin their hopes and perhaps directly on the what Bible says
while others either because of not knowing all the Bible says or
misunderstanding it seem to go an inner knowledge ('gut'
feeling?) based on faith in God without specific reference to
scripture.
I go back the "Good" which I believe God is, which Helen
certainly mentioned here. What exactly that "good" is, none can
say precisely because none has seemingly moved to the point
where he can. If all of us were already overcomers as Jesus was
(John 16:33) then it is more likely that we would all know what
is meant in inspired scripture (what is that?) by "good".
Jesus said, "Why callest thou me good? there is none good but
one, that is, God." Mark 10:18
Was Jesus denying his own goodness?
Rather I see that indeed, God alone is good [don't get into
Jesus being God, please!]. Each person who is good at all as God
understands good has God (at least in a measure) in him. But,
this still does not exactly define good, does it? Men have
defined "good" which was what Helen was really saying. Their
definitions are just that as far as anyone can prove to anyone
else. If their definitions are correct in any measure is it not
because God has given the knowledge to them or allowed them to
find it?
I do believe that Jesus was "good" but he was not only "good" as
God was. Why not? For one reason... because Jesus, if we are to
believe the scripture, was tempted as men are tempted. This is
not sin, but to me it falls short of what God was and is. Jesus
became, I believe, good in that sense when he was glorified,
that is after he had gone through everything as a man and
overcame it all.
You and I on the other hand, if we have not overcome it all as
Jesus did, how could we really understanding what "good" is,
that is what God is, unless God gave us the understanding. If
God did give us such an understanding, how could other person
know that? So then when any man or men define goodness, how
'good' is their definition? God does know, but who else
definitely does? [/font]
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