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#Post#: 1538--------------------------------------------------
Re: God's goodness ...
By: Kerry Date: April 27, 2015, 7:04 am
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[quote author=HereticMouse link=topic=160.msg1533#msg1533
date=1430131766]
Its true Jesus didn't heal everyone - look at why He didn't! It
was not because He didn't want to, but because of their
unbelief.
I've just "listened" through Matthew. I was struck by how many
times the phrase "HE healled all who came to Him" was used.
I have never said JEsus healed everyone - just that Jesus always
did those who came to Him and never refused to. I think that
speaks volumes.
Mike HM
[/quote]So Jesus refuses to heal people if they don't believe
the right way or don't believe enough? Does it annoy him
people lack faith? Does he feel insulted if people lack faith
and decides to punish them for that?
You said he wanted to heal everyone. Now you sound as if you
think Jesus gets angry if people lack faith, so angry he refuses
to heal them.
Did the man at the pool of Siloam come to Jesus or did Jesus go
to him? Another time we see Jesus visiting a house to heal
someone; but at yet another time, when invited by the centurion
to go heal his servant, he healed at a distance. The servant
didn't ask or come. His master did. The pattern you have in
your mind doesn't seem to fit all the cases.
#Post#: 1542--------------------------------------------------
Re: God's goodness ...
By: HappyHeretic Date: April 27, 2015, 9:08 am
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[quote author=Kerry link=topic=160.msg1535#msg1535
date=1430133830]
I recall a man who was born blind and lived blind for years
before Jesus got around to healing him. Jesus said he had been
born blind so he could heal him; but he spent years blind.
What is your explanation for that?
[/quote]
That is John 9. The translation of the Greek into English is
poor and the verse does not say that God made the man blind so
He could heal him later. I can go into more detail on this
translation if you'd like.
It is not a good thing to make someone blind. Ever. Even if God
does it. Therefore we should be questioning the translation or
our understanding of the passage rather than assign badness to a
good God.
[quote]I recall a woman who must have believed Jesus wasn't
going to heal her so she pressed forward to touch his clothes.
Now if he was healing everyone, why would she have done that?
What's stopping him from being here now and healing people if
that's what he wants to do? You seem to believe in a Jesus who
can't do what he wants. Can that be right?
[/quote]
Why do you think that the woman thought JEsus wasn't going to
heal her? And the fact that she was healed by Jesus - even
without Jesus doing anything specific about it is another clear
indication of God's willingness to heal all who come to him.
I do find it interesting that you are trying to find arguments
against God's goodness.
Mike HM
#Post#: 1543--------------------------------------------------
Re: God's goodness ...
By: HappyHeretic Date: April 27, 2015, 9:19 am
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[quote author=Kerry link=topic=160.msg1535#msg1535
date=1430133830]
Now if he was healing everyone, why would she have done that?
[/quote]
Please remember I have never said that Jesus healed everyone.
The Bible is clear that He didn't then, and our experience is
that He hasn't now or through history.
My point is that because He is good - it is always His desire to
heal.
[quote]
What's stopping him from being here now and healing people if
that's what he wants to do? You seem to believe in a Jesus who
can't do what he wants. Can that be right?
[/quote]
Well, firstly, He passed on that ministry to the Church at the
Great Commision. We, the church, should be doing this stuff in
His name.
You have already posted a verse in thyis conversation which
suggested that Jesus doesn't get to do all He wants to do. Mark
6:
4 Jesus said to them, “A prophet is not without honor except in
his own town, among his relatives and in his own home.” 5 He
could not do any miracles there, except lay his hands on a few
sick people and heal them. 6He was amazed at their lack of
faith.
I read in that that he wanted to do some miracles, but couldn't,
and wanted to heal more, but could only heal a few. Given that
most places (all other places?) where He was healing people He
healed all who came to Him, I think it reasonable to assume that
if it weren't for their unbelief He would have healed all who
came to Him.
I don't see any difficulty in that at all. Sp yes, to answer
your question, that can be right.
Mike HM
#Post#: 1544--------------------------------------------------
Re: God's goodness ...
By: HappyHeretic Date: April 27, 2015, 9:39 am
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[quote author=Kerry link=topic=160.msg1538#msg1538
date=1430136264]
So Jesus refuses to heal people if they don't believe the right
way or don't believe enough? Does it annoy him people lack
faith? Does he feel insulted if people lack faith and decides
to punish them for that?
You said he wanted to heal everyone. Now you sound as if you
think Jesus gets angry if people lack faith, so angry he refuses
to heal them. [/quote]
Your putting anger into His motives, not me. I'm of the opinion
that Jesus is gentle and humble in heart and that the fruit of
the Spirit are characteristics of God - they are the Spirit's
fruit after all.
[quote]
Did the man at the pool of Siloam come to Jesus or did Jesus go
to him? Another time we see Jesus visiting a house to heal
someone; but at yet another time, when invited by the centurion
to go heal his servant, he healed at a distance. The servant
didn't ask or come. His master did. The pattern you have in
your mind doesn't seem to fit all the cases.
[/quote]
Does "Jesus healed all who came to Him" prevent or preclude
Jesus from healing people at a distance or Jesus going to those
who can't come to Him No it doesn't and it didn't. Notice the
centurion did show faith not unbelief. And indeed someone did
come to Jesus in that situation.
One thing about the act of "coming to Jesus" is that in and of
itself, it is an act of faith. In the account of the leper in
Matthew 8:
"1 When Jesus came down from the mountainside, large crowds
followed him. 2 A man with leprosy came and knelt before him and
said, “Lord, if you are willing, you can make me clean.”
3 Jesus reached out his hand and touched the man. “I am
willing,” he said. “Be clean!” Immediately he was cleansed of
his leprosy. "
... at what point did the leper first exercise faith? I believe
it to be about the time that he took his first step towards
Jesus. A difficult first step - a man with his condition would
have been used to being rejected daily for being "unclean".
Jesus' answer has reverberated through history - "I am willing"
- complete with the "I AM" hint to his divinity.
"I am the bread of life", "I am the good shepherd", "I am the
resurrection and the life", "I am the way the truth and the
life", "I am willing".
Mike HM
#Post#: 1545--------------------------------------------------
Re: God's goodness ...
By: Helen Date: April 27, 2015, 9:51 am
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Mike/HH I don't know what planet you live on, but it isn't the
same one I live on.
Yes...I believe God IS our Healer...it is one of the names He
declares to us.. I AM the LORD which healeth thee.
" Jesus of Nazareth went about doing good, and healing all who
were oppressed by the devil." Acts.
If you tell me that everyone who is sick (and asks) and believes
for healing is healed, then I would have to say I don't believe
you.
John Wimber could not say that. Bill Johnstone does not say
that. Kenyon did not say that. How come you do?
If everyone who needs healing ( out of the devils clutches) got
their healing , then why in the book " God Generals" ( a book
about all the healing ministeries since John Dowie) did they
all die of some ailment..and many not at their alotted three
score years and ten. All but Smith Wigglesworth died or strokes,
heart attacks or some such disease. I personally know a man
back in the 60's who was a great healing ministry. Pastor
Bassett
He'd below from the pulpit.." If you have pills and medicine in
your cupboard you deserve to be sick. "
After healing so many himself, he died of throat cancer.
I am saying...I believe what God says, because He says it,
therefore it must be so....He IS my healing...He is the healer
of us all.......yet I do not always understand His doings or His
ways.
I have a list of people who spent time in my house, who I knew
to be strong saints who I admired. They believed God is our
strength, power and healer. Every one of them died sick. Lee
Fife, Jane Miller, Cathrine Vanderhoof, Cathrine Chapman, Gudren
Bosen, Eldred Linden, Earnest Watkins, Minnie Kiers, my
father..( who believed to the very end that he would be healed
becuase it is the birthright of the saints) and my list goes
on.....
Yes it may be God's will that all are healed, but experience
shows that ALL are NOT healed. And don't tell me these were not
'true believers' in healing....some of these were healing
ministries themselves.
Jesus chose to heal the man at the pool, because He did what His
Father told Him to do. He healed one man out of the crowd. He
must have walked passed the others that day.
Is the promise of healing always THIS SIDE of the veil ?
I can't see why you had a problem with my statement- "God is
always good, yet He just doesn't always do what we think is
'good'!
These thing sure don't 'appear' good to me....that is 'being
REAL', that is 'saying it AS I SEE AND EXPERIENCE IT'....
I have lived through the era of " don't dare speak any negative
thing."
I am at the end of the road myself...just speaking the positive
statements does not cut it. It just gave us a good security
blanket while it lasted.
I still believe that the church has been sold a 'God of the
magic wand'. It has made cynics and caused disillusionment in
hundreds. I ( once again) know personally those who have
shrugged their shoulders and walked away...saying
" It just doesn't work. I no longer believe." It has broken my
heart. I have no idea why some people give up on God.....they
were just painted 'a wrong God' and cotton candy God, a God of
roses and fluffy clouds, one who is there to do our bidding
every time we pray. Maybe they were only in it for the 'loaves
and fishes' That is between them and God on that day. Are they
'lost' , no way...they just wont be among the overcomers as in
the book of the Revelation.
It is said that there will be a great falling away before the
end. I see it happening now...and fast.
"When the Son of Man cometh will He ( still ) find faith on the
earth."
A very pertinent question for today.
PS HH I have just see you posted before mine...I see that you
say Jesus didn't always heal , but it was His will that all be
healed. I agree, because that is what the bible says.....but it
still doesn't answer the problem= ...then why doesn't He do so
then ?
#Post#: 1546--------------------------------------------------
Re: God's goodness ...
By: HappyHeretic Date: April 27, 2015, 10:00 am
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[quote author=Helen link=topic=160.msg1545#msg1545
date=1430146277]
[size=14pt]Mike/HH I don't know what planet you live on, but it
isn't the same one I live on.
Yes...I believe God IS our Healer...it is one of the names He
declares to us.. I AM the LORD which healeth thee.
" Jesus of Nazareth went about doing good, and healing all who
were oppressed by the devil." Acts.
If you tell me that everyone who is sick (and asks) and believes
for healing is healed, then I would have to say I don't believe
you.
[/quote]
I'm not saying that.
If I said that I would indeed be on another planet, but I'm not
saying that.
Mike HM
#Post#: 1549--------------------------------------------------
Re: God's goodness ...
By: HappyHeretic Date: April 27, 2015, 10:23 am
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[quote author=Helen link=topic=160.msg1545#msg1545
date=1430146277]
PS HH I have just see you posted before mine...I see that you
say Jesus didn't always heal , but it was His will that all be
healed. I agree, because that is what the bible says.....but it
still doesn't answer the problem= ...then why doesn't He do so
then ?
[/quote]
This question may have a partial answer in the opening post.
If, say, we believe that God wants them sick in order to better
their character, or to better spread the Gospel, or whatever
else we may believe about God, do we in some way hinder God's
ability to minister healing to us in a similar way to the way
his miracle working and healing was hindered in Mark 6?
If we believe that God may want us to die from cancer for some
reason, may we put ourselves into double mindedness which in
some way hinders God like Mark 6? (Ian Andrews from Chard has
been preaching this message for 30 odd years that I know of.)
Maybe mis-understanding about God's goodness and willingness to
heal are the issue.
Maybe, if, as Kerry has pointed out, the church believes that
God made a man blind, and other teachings - maybe that is why
the church doesn't see God heal much.
It is interesting, that all the healing ministers I know or know
of, all, without exception, believe that God always wants to
heal the person they are about to minister to. The church, is
generally, double minded about it. For me, I saw an increase in
success rate when I became convinced of it.
Kind regards,
MIke HM
#Post#: 1551--------------------------------------------------
Re: God's goodness ...
By: HappyHeretic Date: April 27, 2015, 10:38 am
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[quote]Is the promise of healing always THIS SIDE of the veil ?
[/quote]
If we look to Jesus, and His revelation of the Father, then I
have to conclude "yes".
However - I have known people close to me who have died young.
One of my good friends is 2 years into his "5 years left". He's
in his mid-50s. I have an incurable, though treatable condition
that will probably take me out early.
So, I'm no stranger to the heart ache of seeing people die
having not been healed.
I think it was the other Mike who posted somewhere about a
statistic of 1 person in 1000 dies peacefully in their sleep
disease free. Wouldn't it be great to see that number increase.
If I can, I'd like to play a small part in that.
Mike HM
#Post#: 1552--------------------------------------------------
Re: God's goodness ...
By: Helen Date: April 27, 2015, 12:45 pm
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Agree HH, it to me seems it is a time of seeing the saints "
sifted as wheat"...but we can stand, remembering our Lord's
words to Peter " But I have prayed that they faith fail not."
The sifting of the saints is no surprise to God, the bigger
issue is " Will our faith fail not.."
"He that endures to the end, the same shall be *saved.." ( in
all it's *fullness)
What I am hearing right now, for myself (and for the Body as a
whole) is:-
How willing are we, or open to, every, any, and ALL false
concepts that we have held to, and believed in...to fall to the
ground? Are we as open as we pretend to be? Will we let the Holy
Spirit search and cleans us of all false idols?
Which brings us back to Mike's favourite quote " Nothing in my
hand I bring , simple to the cross I cling."
When we empty ourselves, He will flood us with present truth.
While we are satisfied with what we have, and have no more
hunger for clearer truth, our familiar idols stay in place. And
He allows that. He gives to the hungry and thirsty.
#Post#: 1576--------------------------------------------------
Re: God's goodness ...
By: HappyHeretic Date: April 28, 2015, 9:46 am
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I have been on a journey discovering that God really is good,
all the time, despite our on-the-surface reading of the Bible
and how this has influenced traditional church teaching. My
universal convictions have come out of this journey.
It is easier now, but when the journey first started, I
struggled to let go of the traditional teachings. The new stuff
seemed to come from left field.
But, for me, discovering His goodness permeates everything that
He does has let me fall in love with Him all over again. I was
close to giving up over the John 9 passage - I spoke to a
respected elder in my network of churches about how God making a
man blind can be reconciled with goodness. His only reply was
that God's goodness is not the same as man's goodness. Ie the
only way he could reconcile the passage was to redefine the word
"good". Mental gymnastics gold medal for him lol
Interestingly, and very sadly, as I love the guy, he has
recently been diagnosed with brain cancer. I spoke to him at
the end of a healing meeting a month or so ago - while he was
happy to receive prayer for healing, he also somehow believed
that God would have him have the disease. So far he has not
received healing.
Typical of the man and his love for people, he was more
interested in how I was getting on and my life difficulties than
he was about talking about his difficulties. I really don't
want to lose this guy, especially to something like cancer.
Bless you, Helen.
Mike HM
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