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#Post#: 1440--------------------------------------------------
Re: God's goodness ...
By: Kerry Date: April 24, 2015, 6:52 pm
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[quote author=HereticMouse link=topic=160.msg1418#msg1418
date=1429882078]
It is my belief that God always wants to heal the sick - because
He is good. Tyler also believes this.[/quote]
Ultimately, I believe this will be true; but that does not mean
the time is always now.
[quote]My belief comes from looking to Jesus and what He did.
Hebrews 1 tells us that Jesus is the "exact representation of
His being". If you want to know what God is like, look to
Jesus. Bill Johnson, no relation to Tyler, says that Jesus is
perfect theology. We are also told that Jesus healed everyone
who came to Him. That reveals something of the Father's desire
to heal everyone.[/quote]This is not the best of logic. I
could say Jesus never married, therefore we should abolish
marriage.
[quote]Also, Jesus never refused to heal anyone.[/quote]He also
did not heal everyone. Your logic is not real logic. You're
saying just because we don't read something in the Bible, we can
draw conclusions from the absence of evidence. What we do
read is this though:
Matthew 13:58 And he did not many mighty works there because of
their unbelief.
[quote]He never said to them something like "I'm not going to
heal you because I want to make you stronger through suffering".
Not ever.
And this healing alll who came is not limited to Jesus - it is
said of the apostles in Acts 5 and of Paul when he was in Malta.
I think it is easy to base our theology on what we experience,
rather than what the book says and the nature and character of
God.[/quote]
I think it was also easy for the people who Jesus fed to take
the food and say, "It is good to have food for the belly. We
were hungry." Remember how disappointed Jesus was with them?
Some miracles are performed, not to help the people being
healed or the people you might think are benefiting, but more as
a sign to others so they perceive something is going on, so
their faith increases. The people in the audience may be the
ones God wants to reach. The "good" in some miracles is not
always it may appear to be on the surface. We see miracles
being used to kick-start Christianity -- that is what I see --
and the relying on signs and wonders has its own dangers.
Jesus was very disappointed at how people responded since that
miracle did not lead to anything useful.
Mark 6: 52 For they considered not the miracle of the loaves:
for their heart was hardened.
Evil came of the miracle of the loaves! I'm not saying Jesus
did evil or wanted evil; but what he meant for good was changed
into evil since people hardened their hearts.
If performing a miracle would lead to more good than evil, then
I believe it is God's Will to have it. If would lead to more
evil than good, it is not God's Will. Then there are cases
where the outcome may not be known since men have free will and
not everything can be predicted.
[quote]You will notice that Tyler doesn't say he has a perfect
understanding of God's goodness, nor that he sees 100% of people
healed. That does not mean his theology is not right - just
that it is not worked out in him fully.
But it is interesting that un-belief is showing already in this
thread :D
[/quote]My unbelief is aimed at myself. I do not believe I know
perfectly the Will of God or understand perfectly what is good
and what is evil. If Tyler does not have a perfect
understanding of God's goodness, then he should not say he knows
it is always God's Will to heal everyone because he, Tyler,
knows healing is always good. His attitude strikes me as
arrogant -- as if he always knows what is best and he can demand
God do it. This is not what Isaiah advises us to do. Isaiah
says we are to ask God what His Will is, and then pray
accordingly. If our prayers are lined up with the Will of God,
they will always be answered. Always. That does not mean
however they will always be answered immediately.
I have prayed and still do sometimes for something to happen
which I do not expect to see in my day. There is a section of
land I pray to go into the sea. I take the passage about
commanding a mountain to go into the sea seriously. Call me
crazy, call me delusional, it doesn't matter. I was shown a
vision of that piece of land going into the sea and told to pray
it happens. But I also know it's not going to happen on my time
schedule. If it happened now, more evil than good would be
result.
Please do not think others are guilty of unbelief because they
disagree with you. I could say of Tyler that his faith is in
a god of his own imagination -- a god who jumps through hoops
and performs as Tyler wants and demands. That could be true
too for all I know. Maybe he has an idol. Maybe his faith in
not in God at all but in a god of his own making. Perhaps he's
the one with the real unbelief since he doesn't believe that God
may know some things better than he, Tyler, does.
I also criticize people like him for bringing Christianity into
a bad light. It is absurd to claim he can raise the dead, and
then make a film about it where he fails abysmally. What is he
trying to prove? That God can't raise the dead by praying for
it and then not having it happen? By their fruits, you will
know them. He prays for things and does not get them -- he
fails, and his god does not answer him. That's how I see it.
He's as much a failure as the priests of Baal trying to call
down fire from Heaven.
I also see him as an accuser of the saints. He seems to be
saying if someone prays for healing and doesn't get it, there's
something wrong with that person's faith. I condemn that kind
of thinking as satanic, meant to make good people who have
proper faith in God to question themselves and to question their
faith and ultimately to question God too.
It is a mischievous idea he holds to say it is God's Will to
heal everyone. If that is true because God is all good, then it
must be true also that God is lacking in either the Power to do
it or the Wisdom of knowing how to do it. Something must be
more powerful than God, blocking God's goodness. What might
that be? Back we are to a kind of satanic thinking -- that
Satan is more powerful than God. People are apt to think God
wants to heal us but can't because Satan is too strong.
All in due time, HH. All in due time. Patience, patience. It
is not God's Will to resurrect everyone now. If that were the
case, there would be no need for any resurrection later. No,
I believe we are like little children who need to learn what is
good and what isn't so we don't misuse and abuse the Good and
Perfect gifts of God when He gives them to us. It seems better
to me that He not try to correct everything at once lest mankind
harden their hearts and increase their wickedness. You
would not give a tot a automobile as a present and expect a good
outcome. Your gift might be good; but a baby can't be expected
to drive a car.
What you intended for good could result in evil. My belief is
that God is more clever than parents who buy good things for
their children only to bring about disaster. God's Plan
involves His Perfect Goodness to be sure; but man must be ready
for it -- and the world as a whole is not ready for it.
Therefore God withholds some things and we will not see how
Perfect His Goodness really is until the Thousand Year Reign.
Can you imagine a world where everyone could perform miracles?
Would you want a world where sinners could walk on water and
heal the sick? Where they could call down fire on other
people? What about a world where everyone could do what Peter
did and have others fall down dead? I thank God everyone
can't perform miracles now. The world isn't ready for it yet.
I am not pretending to make a prophetic utterance; but it would
not surprise me at all if Tyler Johnson comes to a bad end. He
is practically inviting it by trying to tempt God.
When Jesus was hungry, should we believe it would have been a
good thing to make bread out of the stones? Perhaps. Isn't it
a good thing to feed the hungry? What could be wrong then with
a miracle or two?
3 And when the tempter came to him, he said, If thou be the Son
of God, command that these stones be made bread.
4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by
bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth
of God.
. . .
7 Jesus said unto him, It is written again, Thou shalt not tempt
the Lord thy God.
It would not surprise me if Tyler Johnson comes to a sad end,
perhaps calling down some dire disease on himself in order to
correct him. I don't like to say it; but Tyler Johnson's
operation looks like a money making scheme to me, and I wouldn't
give him a dime. He will surely take your money though if you
want to contribute. By their fruits you will know them. I can't
judge him ultimately; but sometimes I wonder if people like him
were given a gift of God in order to do good -- and they could
have done good with it too -- but then they fall into temptation
and try to make a reputation for themselves and try to make
money by it. If he is a servant of God who gave into
temptation, I expect God to correct him.
HTML http://www.deadraisingteam.com/DRT/Give.html
#Post#: 1526--------------------------------------------------
Re: God's goodness ...
By: HappyHeretic Date: April 27, 2015, 4:21 am
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[quote author=Helen link=topic=160.msg1431#msg1431
date=1429897937]
[size=14pt]God is always good. He just doesn't always do what we
think is "good."
[/quote]
Then why is the word "good" used to describe Him?
Sure the word that should be used is the one that says "God is
good but not goodness as we know it".
I'm not talking about a magic wand kind of God - who will answer
every request at my will.
Interestingly though, all the people with significant healing
ministries that I have read about or met believe that God always
wants to heal sick people.
As for Tyler Johnson - this book is more illuminating about the
man and his experiences than an unbelif filled bbc web page:
HTML http://www.amazon.co.uk/Stories-Supernatural-Finding-Walmart-Unlikely-ebook/dp/B003TU1OHQ
Mike HM
#Post#: 1527--------------------------------------------------
Re: God's goodness ...
By: HappyHeretic Date: April 27, 2015, 4:41 am
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[quote author=Piper link=topic=160.msg1432#msg1432
date=1429898427]
[font=trebuchet ms]O Helen . . . Parallels in our posts! Two
minutes apart. More tears to be counted! :-* Keep the faith,
what 'ere befalls us !!! You, dear lady, are an
inspiration![/font]
[/quote]
So, is this two people who have failed to see God heal them or a
loved one setting their theology on their circumstances or His
Word and character?
Sorry to be blunt, but it seems like it to me.
Put it alongside the Father that Jesus revealed - one who healed
everyone who came to Him - and your theology does not match the
Bible, nor does it match the character og God that Jesus
revealed to us.
I actually think the church has been sold a lie that God doesn't
heal. I've heard pastors saying that the comfort sick and dying
people with the notion that to be sick is sharing in Jesus
suffering. However encouraing that may be, it is a lie and
propgated by ministers who were unable to get people healed.
If Isaiah 53 is right - there is forgiveness for all our sins
and, I suggest, healing for all our sicknesses in the atonement.
If there is not healing for all sicknesses, then nor is there
forgiveness for all sins.
Kindest regards,
Mike HM
#Post#: 1530--------------------------------------------------
Re: God's goodness ...
By: A nonny mouse Date: April 27, 2015, 5:31 am
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[quote author=HereticMouse link=topic=160.msg1527#msg1527
date=1430127699]
So, is this two people who have failed to see God heal them or a
loved one setting their theology on their circumstances or His
Word and character?
Sorry to be blunt, but it seems like it to me.
Put it alongside the Father that Jesus revealed - one who healed
everyone who came to Him - and your theology does not match the
Bible, nor does it match the character og God that Jesus
revealed to us.
I actually think the church has been sold a lie that God doesn't
heal. I've heard pastors saying that the comfort sick and dying
people with the notion that to be sick is sharing in Jesus
suffering. However encouraing that may be, it is a lie and
propgated by ministers who were unable to get people healed.
If Isaiah 53 is right - there is forgiveness for all our sins
and, I suggest, healing for all our sicknesses in the atonement.
If there is not healing for all sicknesses, then nor is there
forgiveness for all sins.
Kindest regards,
Mike HM
[/quote]
Just another example of people tying themselves up in knots
(Mike HM, and those he addresses) by believing the Bible
(effectively) to be the complete and final, verbally inerrant,
Word of God.
Deists don't have any such problems.
#Post#: 1531--------------------------------------------------
Re: God's goodness ...
By: HappyHeretic Date: April 27, 2015, 5:34 am
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[quote author=Kerry link=topic=160.msg1440#msg1440
date=1429919567]
Ultimately, I believe this will be true; but that does not mean
the time is always now.
[/quote]
But it was with Jesus. He never said "later" to a healing.
So, we can deduce from that that if Jesus was hear now - He
would heal.
Oh wait a minute ... He passed that job onto the church and gave
us the Holy Spirit to empower us to do it.
And it says in Acts 5 that they (the apostles) healed all who
came to them - so it wasn't just something JEsus could do.
We don't have the same experience with healing that Jesus and
the apostles had - is that because God is treating us
differently, or that maybe possibly we have something not quite
right with our understanding of God on His ways?
I suspect it is the latter.
Looking at the discipling process that Jesus took the disciples
through ... he called them, showed them some miracles, changed
their thinking anout God (sermon on the mount) and sent them off
to do the miracle stuff themselves.
What kind of discipling do we (the church) do these days? Do we
show our new disciples miracles, or do we explain why God
doesn't heal today? (but with more subtle words).
In my experience, in most churches if discipling is going on at
all, there is no exposure to the supernatural at all and very
little teaching. This is also true in Bible college where
future ministers are being trained.
I think it there is a self-fulfilling nature to this - "god
doesn't want to heal all" so God doesn't heal all.
And in the process the perception of God as a good is
diminished.
But its ok - because all with receive healing in the end.
But really, I don't think that is ok - but it does allow me to
say "My Dad is gooder than your Dad!"
Kind regards,
Mike HM
#Post#: 1532--------------------------------------------------
Re: God's goodness ...
By: HappyHeretic Date: April 27, 2015, 5:36 am
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=A Trusting Deist link=topic=160.msg1530#msg1530
date=1430130689]
Just another example of people tying themselves up in knots
(Mike HM, and those he addresses) by believing the Bible
(effectively) to be the complete and final, verbally inerrant,
Word of God.
Deists don't have any such problems.
[/quote]
Are you saying that I am typing myself in knots? Its the first
time someone has called me an inerrantist ::) lol
MIke HM
#Post#: 1533--------------------------------------------------
Re: God's goodness ...
By: HappyHeretic Date: April 27, 2015, 5:49 am
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Kerry link=topic=160.msg1440#msg1440
date=1429919567]
He also did not heal everyone. Your logic is not real logic.
You're saying just because we don't read something in the Bible,
we can draw conclusions from the absence of evidence. What we
do read is this though:
Matthew 13:58 And he did not many mighty works there because of
their unbelief.
[/quote]
Its true Jesus didn't heal everyone - look at why He didn't! It
was not because He didn't want to, but because of their
unbelief.
I've just "listened" through Matthew. I was struck by how many
times the phrase "HE healled all who came to Him" was used.
I have never said JEsus healed everyone - just that Jesus always
did those who came to Him and never refused to. I think that
speaks volumes.
Mike HM
#Post#: 1535--------------------------------------------------
Re: God's goodness ...
By: Kerry Date: April 27, 2015, 6:23 am
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=HereticMouse link=topic=160.msg1531#msg1531
date=1430130891]
But it was with Jesus. He never said "later" to a healing.
[/quote]
I recall a man who was born blind and lived blind for years
before Jesus got around to healing him. Jesus said he had been
born blind so he could heal him; but he spent years blind.
What is your explanation for that?
I recall a woman who must have believed Jesus wasn't going to
heal her so she pressed forward to touch his clothes. Now if
he was healing everyone, why would she have done that?
[quote]So, we can deduce from that that if Jesus was hear now -
He would heal.[/quote]
What's stopping him from being here now and healing people if
that's what he wants to do? You seem to believe in a Jesus who
can't do what he wants. Can that be right?
At the pool of Bethesda, the angel came down at certain times
only and only the first person into the water was healed. When
Jesus arrived there, it's said there was a multitude of the sick
there. How many people did Jesus heal there? One. Hmmm.
Someone has told you that Jesus healed everyone and you
believed that person; but that's not Scriptural. He didn't.
[quote]Oh wait a minute ... He passed that job onto the church
and gave us the Holy Spirit to empower us to do it.
And it says in Acts 5 that they (the apostles) healed all who
came to them - so it wasn't just something JEsus could do.
We don't have the same experience with healing that Jesus and
the apostles had - is that because God is treating us
differently, or that maybe possibly we have something not quite
right with our understanding of God on His ways?
I suspect it is the latter.[/quote]
I suspect we are not all Apostles or even close to it. The
Apostles also wrote the books of the New Testament. Should we
expect to do that too and have our books included in the Bible?
[quote]Looking at the discipling process that Jesus took the
disciples through ... he called them, showed them some
miracles, changed their thinking anout God (sermon on the mount)
and sent them off to do the miracle stuff themselves.
What kind of discipling do we (the church) do these days? Do we
show our new disciples miracles, or do we explain why God
doesn't heal today? (but with more subtle words).
In my experience, in most churches if discipling is going on at
all, there is no exposure to the supernatural at all and very
little teaching. This is also true in Bible college where
future ministers are being trained.
I think it there is a self-fulfilling nature to this - "god
doesn't want to heal all" so God doesn't heal all.
And in the process the perception of God as a good is
diminished.
But its ok - because all with receive healing in the end.
But really, I don't think that is ok - but it does allow me to
say "My Dad is gooder than your Dad!" [/quote]
I don't think people making outrageous claims about miracles to
gain followers and to make money only to bring disgrace to the
whole subject is the answer.
I believe in miracles. I've seen miracles. I also know that
there are lots of fakers out there. Very few people are
willing to have medical records produced and the testimony of
physicians. I wish more Protestants followed the lead of the
Catholic Church when it wants to be so sure about its claims of
miracles, they invite doctors to look into things. I really
believe that a lot of what are called miracles is mostly fantasy
or wishful thinking, a lot is cooked up, and so on.
If I have time, I may start discussing cases of "healers" who
fell sick themselves or had family members struck down. How
fast they turned to doctors is fascinating. They could tell
their followers to trust them for healing; but when they got
sick themselves, it seems they put more faith in doctors than
in God.
What I don't like most is when people who believe in healing so
much tell other people there must be something wrong with them,
they must not have the right faith in God if they're not healed.
People who are sick are suffering enough. Telling them
they're to blame because they lack faith seems cruel to me,
piling it on.
When I was young a family from where I lived in Pennsylvania
traveled hundreds of miles to visit an Oral Roberts service.
I'd say they had some faith at least their child would be healed
if they invested time, effort and money. They were ignored.
They were told to sit with other people waiting to be healed;
but they were completely ignored. They returned home
disappointed.
Of course now, Oral Roberts is the same fellow who saw other
ministers putting their hands on people and making them fall
down; and he wanted to be able to do that too. So he hired an
electrician to put an electrical panel in the floor; and when
people were expected to fall down, some member of his staff
pushed a button and shocked them to make them fall down. So
Austin Miles said in his book -- he said he had talked to the
electrician who installed it.
Remember Austin Miles? He prayed for someone to be raised from
the dead and it worked. That's when he converted and became a
Christian. That story had enough witnesses too. Miles was a
circusmaster and wasn't a Christian; and someone had a heart
attack. Someone came and told him about it, and Miles wanted
to prevent a panic. So he remembered things some of his
Pentecostal acquaintances had told him and he asked the audience
to bow their heads and pray. The ambulance came and took the
man away. What Mies found out later was the man's heart had
actually stopped beating. Not only had he had a heart attack.
He had died. But when the ambulance got there, the man's heart
was beating again. That's when he converted and then joined up
with people like the Bakkers. It's a fascinating book. The
ending may break your heart though.
Do I believe that story? Yes, I do. I find Tyler Johnson a
little more dubious.
Miracles are not a clear sign that something is from God anyway.
They are a sign that something is at work; but it's not for
sure it's God. I've seen miracles done that I know did not
come from God.
You're right about the need for discipline; but there you have
it, I don't think most faith healers know what they're doing.
Austin Miles didn't. He would be so "charged" after a healing
service, often he'd set off metal detectors at airports.
They thought he had to have something metal concealed. That
detail makes complete sense to me. He could get the "charge" up
but didn't know how to control it.
#Post#: 1536--------------------------------------------------
Re: God's goodness ...
By: Kerry Date: April 27, 2015, 6:32 am
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=HereticMouse link=topic=160.msg1533#msg1533
date=1430131766]
Its true Jesus didn't heal everyone - look at why He didn't! It
was not because He didn't want to, but because of their
unbelief.
I've just "listened" through Matthew. I was struck by how many
times the phrase "HE healled all who came to Him" was used.
[/quote]You are jumping to conclusions again. Just because
there were times when Jesus did heal all who came to him does
not mean that he did the same thing at every other time.
[quote]I have never said JEsus healed everyone - just that Jesus
always did those who came to Him and never refused to. I think
that speaks volumes. [/quote]You have not produced evidence for
this. All you have shown is that there were times when he did
heal all who came to him.
In the prior post, I give you evidence to the contrary like at
the pool of Bethesda where only one man was healed. There was
the woman who was afraid she would not be healed so she pressed
forward; and we also see one time when the Bible says he did not
perform many miracles.
Your logic is like saying that just because we know Billy ate
all his spinach on some days, it means he always eats all his
spinach.
#Post#: 1537--------------------------------------------------
Re: God's goodness ...
By: Kerry Date: April 27, 2015, 6:52 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Take the case of Hobart Freeman. Scores of people in his
church died because of his teachings. From Wikipedia:
At a meeting of the County Board of Health on October 23, 1974,
Barbara Clouse, the Health Nurse for Kosciusko County was
concerned that the Glory Barn was a major health problem and it
would only get worse. She detailed her concerns, saying that:
Diabetics were not taking their insulin and pregnant women were
receiving no pre-natal or post-natal care. ... They are laying
dead babies and live babies next to each other on the altars and
praying over them to get the live babies to bring life back to
the dead ones. There was one woman in our county praying over a
baby for four days before the funeral home got hold of it.
Clouse's concerns were later supported by local hospital
statistics for 1975/6, which suggested that women from the
congregation who gave birth at home were over 60 times more
likely to die than those who gave birth at hospital under
medical supervision. Later assessment by the US Department of
Health and Human Services supported this conclusion. Deaths of
several women, infants and babies were reported, and the local
media blamed Freeman's teachings as medical treatment had been
declined or refused.
Deaths continued to be reported to the frustration of county law
enforcement officials.
Shortly after they were publicized, the old Glory Barn burnt
down in the early hours of July 4, 1980. Six people escaped from
the burning two-story barn. Two youngsters, Joel and Lee,
suffered burns before they were rescued from their bedrooms by
their father Brendan Wahl. The boys' mother, Peggy Wahl (née
Nusbaum), also claims to have been involved in their rescue,
along with their daughter Penny who was not injured[citation
needed]. Fire brigades from North Webster, Syracuse and Cromwell
fought the blaze for some two hours until dawn, and the fire was
subsequently investigated by the Noble County Police and Indiana
State Fire Marshal. North Webster fire officials described the
fire as of "suspicious origin". To date no culprit has been
charged.
In May 1983, the Chicago Tribune ran a story on David Gilmore
whose 15-month-old son, Dustin Graham, had died five years
previously from an easily treatable form of meningitis.
Following church teaching, Gilmore and his wife had relied
solely on prayer for their son's healing. Gilmore said he knew
of twelve other children who had died under similar
circumstances. The Tribune further identified fifty-two deaths
from Indiana, Illinois, Michigan, Ohio and Kentucky which, they
asserted, were attributable to church teaching. A few months
later, ABC television's Nightline reported that pregnant women
following church teaching died at a rate eight times the
national average and their children at three times. Nightline
further identified nineteen states and five countries where
deaths had occurred which, they asserted, were attributable to
church teaching.
Eventually, Hobart Freeman was charged with aiding and abetting
one of these deaths by what was described as "negligent
homicide". At least ninety members of the congregation died
during Freeman's ministry, which Daniel McConnell described as
tragic and preventable.
Hobart himself had an interesting medical history. Again from
Wikipedia:
Shortly before Freeman received "the baptism in the Holy
Spirit", he survived a heart attack. He "claimed" his healing,
disposed of his medications, and almost immediately suffered a
series of angina attacks, which eventually subsided.
How his life ended is tragic.
Two weeks before this matter was to come to court [the matter
referred to above], Freeman died at his Shoe Lake home of
bronchial pneumonia and congestive heart failure complicated by
an ulcerated gangrenous leg, which in the weeks preceding had
forced him to preach sitting down. He had refused all medical
help, even to the removal of the bandages so his leg could be
cleaned.
Previously in Faith for Healing, Freeman had said that "To claim
healing for the body and then to continue to take medicine is
not following our faith with corresponding action ... When
genuine faith is present, it alone will be sufficient for it
will take the place of medicines and other aids."
Freeman's death was not reported for at least 13 hours due to an
all-night prayer vigil for his resurrection. He was buried in a
pine box with no public viewing and no graveside or memorial
service. For many months afterwards, his wife left his suit
over the end of the bed, expecting him to one day walk in and
have need of it.
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