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#Post#: 1312--------------------------------------------------
Re: What is the Gospel?
By: Kerry Date: April 21, 2015, 5:48 pm
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[quote author=Piper link=topic=146.msg1310#msg1310
date=1429652769]
[font=trebuchet ms]^I'm following closely, Kerry. Trying to.
All of the above seems good and well, wonderful teaching.
What, though, do you make of verse 3:[/font]
[font=trebuchet ms]What are your thoughts, specifically on verse
3?[/font]
[/quote]I'd say he meant sins of ignorance and the sin of Adam.
Jesus did not die to correct willful and knowing sins (what you
might call mortal sin) -- we must correct ourselves on those.
Jesus did not die so we could get away with murder and every
other sin in the book and think he would fix it all for us.
This idea is obnoxious to me since it would make Jesus an
encourager of sin. That is not to say that mortal sins are
going to send someone to eternal hell. There are other ways of
dealing with such things; but Jesus is not going to pay for
them.
In this world, for good or ill, our acts can influence others.
This was meant to be a good thing. If we behave lovingly, it
matters. We can make others happy and they can make us happy.
But it can also create mischief; and Adam's sin brought death
into the world. From God's point of view, that isn't right.
It is not right that Adam's children be punished for his sin.
Jesus came to reverse that.
If we have the wrong attitude about sin and forgiveness, we may
find God demands we pay for them. In Matthew 18, we are told
about a lord who forgave a large debt; and when he learned that
the person he had forgiven went and collared someone who owed
him a trifling sum, the lord was extremely angry.
Matthew 18:32 Then his lord, after that he had called him, said
unto him, O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt,
because thou desiredst me:
33 Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy
fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee?
34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors,
till he should pay all that was due unto him.
35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye
from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their
trespasses.
I don't know if that means purgatory or hell , but notice that
the man is not threatened with eternal punishment. He can pay
the debt himself and is expected to. His action showed he
didn't want a world where forgiveness and mercy operated, so
that is what he got. If he felt tormented, so be it. He got
what he asked for.
If we want a world where love and mercy are possible, we should
behave that way. We can't ask Jesus for forgiveness when that
suits us and then turn around and say we think forgiveness for
the other guy doesn't suit us.
And certainly Jesus did not die to correct the sins of people
who advance spiritually and who can be called "enlightened" who
then chose to sin deliberately.
Hebrews 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once
enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made
partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the
world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance;
seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put
him to an open shame.
The solution for such sins is burning what is not worth saving.
Again I cannot tell you if hell or purgatory is meant. Eternal
punishment is not mentioned or threatened; but fire is.
8 But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is
nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.
There are also other sins which can afflict man even if he is
innocent. The man who was born blind? Surely he was born
blind because of the fallen state of this world. Was it
because he had sinned or his parents had sinned? Jesus said no.
That state of being afflicted by sin existed so it could be
healed. It does not mean the man born blind was the person
committing the sin. The world is full of unfairness where the
innocent pay for the sins of the guilty. It goes beyond the sin
of Adam.
If we are members of the Body of Christ, we do not say, "Jesus
came to bear all the burdens of the world." Sometimes we are
asked to bear some burdens too, to lighten the load on others.
Sometimes it is not yet the time to remove some evils from the
world. Not yet, the time is not yet. But we can be helpful by
temporarily taking on some of the burdens of others.
Galatians 6:2 Bear ye one another's burdens, and so fulfil the
law of Christ.
Yet we should not think we can bear anyone's burdens forever.
5 For every man shall bear his own burden.
We find Jesus doing much the same. Some sins can be easily
forgiven. The exact same sins may not be forgiven later however
if we know what we're doing and willfully chose to sin.
We cannot forget the first principles, we cannot forget our
"first love."
Revelation 2:4 Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee,
because thou hast left thy first love.
5 Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent,
and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly,
and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou
repent.
#Post#: 1314--------------------------------------------------
Re: What is the Gospel?
By: Piper Date: April 21, 2015, 7:31 pm
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[font=trebuchet ms]Thanks, Kerry. I do apologize if I
misrepresented your belief; I used the words "seem to be saying"
because I wasn't sure I understood. Thank you for clarifying.
When you speak of "the sin of Adam", is that the same as
"original sin"?
I think I understand the concept of "sins of ignorance."
When you speak of "the curse Adam brought on his children", I
understand the actions of Adam and Eve "brought about" the
curse, but nonetheless, it was God who pronounced the curse,
correct? If it is not right to punish Adam's children for his
offense, does that imply God made a mistake (by pronouncing the
curse?) that needed correcting? I doubt that's what you mean,
in light of other things you've said about never believing God
to be imperfect in any way. Can you explain, please? Although
it comes to me, that the "curse" was a blessing in the respect
that to live forever in a world under the consequence of sin
would be terrible. So, physical death becomes a blessing, and
opens the door (through Christ) to eternal life apart from the
consequence of sin. Does that sound correct?
I think you are close to Catholic teaching, although there's a
lot to take in, much to "unlearn," and much in Catholicism is
still new to me. Will study over the thread again and consider
everything.[/font]
#Post#: 1315--------------------------------------------------
Re: What is the Gospel?
By: Kerry Date: April 21, 2015, 8:26 pm
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[quote author=Piper link=topic=146.msg1314#msg1314
date=1429662706]
Thanks, Kerry. I do apologize if I misrepresented your belief;
I used the words "seem to be saying" because I wasn't sure I
understood. Thank you for clarifying.
When you speak of "the sin of Adam", is that the same as
"original sin"?[/quote]No, I do not subscribe to the Catholic
view about original sin. I lean towards towards the Orthodox
and Jewish views on that.
[quote]I think I understand the concept of "sins of ignorance."
When you speak of "the curse Adam brought on his children", I
understand the actions of Adam and Eve "brought about" the
curse, but nonetheless, it was God who pronounced the curse,
correct? If it is not right to punish Adam's children for his
offense, does that imply God made a mistake (by pronouncing the
curse?) that needed correcting? I doubt that's what you mean,
in light of other things you've said about never believing God
to be imperfect in any way. Can you explain, please? Although
it comes to me, that the "curse" was a blessing in the respect
that to live forever in a world under the consequence of sin
would be terrible. So, physical death becomes a blessing, and
opens the door (through Christ) to eternal life apart from the
consequence of sin. Does that sound correct?[/quote]I don't see
God as cursing them as much as informing them of the
consequences of their actions. Their actions resulted in the
curse. We something similar in Deuteronomy when the blessings
and curses are put before Israel, and they are urged to choose
right. Chose life and live.
If we choose correctly, we are then under God's protection. If
we choose incorrectly, we are no longer under His protection;
but that does not mean to me He has cursed us.
I believe you are right about returning to dust being a
blessing. God by withdrawing His protection allows evil to
return to the dust. If men want to be evil, God allows it.
They are cursing themselves as I see it; and God is allowing
them to do it. Mankind can keep doing this until we are
tired of it. Tired enough to want to stop.
[quote]I think you are close to Catholic teaching, although
there's a lot to take in, much to "unlearn," and much in
Catholicism is still new to me. Will study over the thread
again and consider everything. [/quote]
Here is something else I just ran across that I think is both
fascinating and true. From the Catechism
HTML http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p4s2a1.htm.<br
/> Tertullian said it.
2761 The Lord's Prayer "is truly the summary of the whole
gospel." "Since the Lord . . . after handing over the practice
of prayer, said elsewhere, 'Ask and you will receive,' and since
everyone has petitions which are peculiar to his circumstances,
the regular and appropriate prayer [the Lord's Prayer] is said
first, as the foundation of further desires."
Yes, that surprised me a little to see that; but I agree with
it.
#Post#: 1316--------------------------------------------------
Re: What is the Gospel?
By: Kerry Date: April 21, 2015, 11:12 pm
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Let me go on to discuss what God told Cain. There it's also
easy to think God was angry and cursed the ground even more.
But is that right?
First God says the blood of Abel is crying out from the ground.
Then he says the ground is cursed. Does that mean God cursed
it? To me, it doesn't. Dominion over the earth was given to
man. We decide what happens here; and I believe it was man's
unwise decisions that cursed the earth. If God intended to
punish Cain, why did He extend mercy to him then?
Our translations err too by having Cain say, "My punishment is
greater than I can bear." It is a question, not an indicative
statement. It should read, "Is my iniquity too great to bear?"
According to the Jewish tradition, Cain is asking God if his
iniquity is too great for God to be able to do anything about.
The KJV version substitutes the word "punishment" and also
assumes Cain was talking about himself bearing the burden and
adds "I." But that is wrong. Cain is asking for Mercy if at
all possible; and we find that his sin was not too big for God
to be able to "bear" it. God then protected Cain, but the
ground was still cursed.
Man's acts cursed the earth; and it was Jesus as a man who
reversed that curse, at least in part, for those who were
willing to have it lifted and who were also willing to make a
serious effort to stop cursing the earth themselves. God
wanted that curse removed so much He was willing to send His Son
to die if that's what it took. That's how I see it. I can't
see God losing His temper over people disobeying Him, and then
feeling sorry for them later and changing His Mind.
#Post#: 1318--------------------------------------------------
Re: What is the Gospel?
By: A nonny mouse Date: April 22, 2015, 2:10 am
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According to my current Deistic way of thinking the �Gospel� and
�Salvation� are part of a two sided equation.
On one side you have God who has set in place the �mechanics� of
how it all works, whereas the other side of the equation you
have man who needs not to know about the details of the
�mechanics�, and needs to do no more than have faith and trust
in a God who asks nothing more than �worship� from those who
trust and have faith in him.
God, as I have suggested many times over the years, is not for
hanging out and dissecting in respect of his detailed sovereign
will and intent.
All of which is a fundamental part of
HTML http://religiousconvictions.createaforum.com/according-to-mike/what-do-i-'really-believe'/
#Post#: 1320--------------------------------------------------
Re: What is the Gospel?
By: HappyHeretic Date: April 22, 2015, 3:46 am
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[quote author=Piper link=topic=146.msg1302#msg1302
date=1429628175]
[font=trebuchet ms]Yes, I read the context, but fail to see that
verse 24 refers only and specifically to slaves. Verses 22-24
describe what Christ did, and what He did, He did for all His
sheep.[/font] [/quote]
Here's how I think the passage is split - and note, it continues
in chapter 3 -
v11 "Dear friends ..."
v18 "Slaves ..."
3v1 ""Wives ..."
3v7 "Husbands ..."
3v8 "Finally, all of you ..."

I think the groupings are clear from that. When I read the
section to slaves I don't see healing as the topic at all. The
topic is about slaves receiving an unjust harsh beating and
Peter is encouraging them to think of themselves going through
the same experience that Jesus went through.
I may be wrong, but that is how it reads to me.
I think the verse in Isaiah 53 is talking specifically about
physical healing. I have heard it extended to spiritual healing
before, but usually by people who don't believe either that God
heals physically today, or that healing was included in the
atonement. They have to account for this verse in their
theology and so corrupt its original meaning.
I think there are better verses that you could use to make your
point.
Kind regards,
Mike HM
[/quote]
#Post#: 1326--------------------------------------------------
Re: What is the Gospel?
By: Kerry Date: April 22, 2015, 5:24 am
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[quote author=HereticMouse link=topic=146.msg1323#msg1323
date=1429693645]
Hmm. Can there be a one-sied reconciliation? I think not. One
sided forgiveness, yes.
For salvation each must respond to God. It is the blood shed on
the cross that makes the reconciliation possible.
I think Eph 2: 8 and 9 is useful here:
"For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith � and
this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God � 9 not by
works, so that no one can boast."
Would repentance, or trying to live a better life be considered
a "work"?
Mike HM
[/quote]Yes, it is a work, but not of ourselves. We cannot
even come to the Father unless He draws us; but it is also said
if we draw nigh to God, He will draw nigh to us, and also Jesus
said he would draw all men. We may move an inch on our steam
at first until God grants us more power. Faith is also said to
be something we receive, not being our own. So God grants us
these things as gifts. If we do not use them, saying salvation
is not of works lest any man should boast, we are being
ungrateful for the gifts God gave us. We are like the
unfaithful servant who buried his talent in the ground.
John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to
become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
It is not God by Himself or man by himself. It is the two
together acting in a covenant. That is what I believe.
Consider Adam. God presented Adam with a great many things but
did not "finish" Adam. It is not said of Adam that he was
good. He wasn't either good or evil. He was in between. God
rested. It was God's wish that Adam "finish" himself; and God
gave him everything he needed to do it. I say God, as God, is
still resting. His work was concluded on day six. His works
after that are done through His servants. (I got thrown off a
forum once for saying that among a few other things.) I also
believe Jesus finished his work on the earth; and now his work
is done through his servants.
Yes, I also believe his servants did greater works than Jesus
himself did, just as he said. How many people can we say Jesus
himself brought personally into the kingdom? I figure a
hundred and twenty? But his doing that enabled them to bring
3000 into the kingdom on the first Pentecost -- and that was
just for starters. We cannot say they did it on their own
however.
We've no excuse if we keep on racking up more debts spiritually
instead of trying to help others after we were so bankrupt
spiritually that we needed a Redeemer to get us out of debt so
we could amount to something. Jesus pays our debts, yes, so we
owe him; and he requires we pay him back. We are his property
and expected to serve.
Repentance for me is turning away from trying to do things "my"
way, trying to accomplish things on my own steam. We can work
and work and work on our own, and that gets us nowhere at times
and into deeper trouble at other times. Repentance is
realizing such a tactic isn't working, so we regret our past and
are willing to try something else.
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