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#Post#: 1298--------------------------------------------------
Re: What is the Gospel?
By: HappyHeretic Date: April 21, 2015, 8:14 am
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You are sounding a bit all-roads-lead-to-God here, though Kerry.
Though I do tend to agree with you. Evangelicals - and I am one
- do love the idea of a point-in-time conversion, typical of
which is having someone lead another through a form of "sinner's
prayer". I'm less inclined to go with that these days and in my
evangelitic endeavours am less likely to push for a decision
than I am to introduce someone to the tangible love of God.
Even so, reconciliation is clearly through the blood of Jesus
shed on the cross.
Regards,
Mike HM
#Post#: 1301--------------------------------------------------
Re: What is the Gospel?
By: Piper Date: April 21, 2015, 9:23 am
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[font=trebuchet ms]Kerry,
You say you have not omitted Christ, but from what you seem to
be saying, He is really not at all necessary to our salvation;
we turn from sin and God does the rest.
But what of all the verses pertaining to the cross, to Jesus
dying for our sins? If we are forgiven simply on the basis of
repentance, for what did our Lord die?
Do we throw such verses away? Do we claim the verses lie, that
Jesus did not die on the cross to save all people who turn to
Him from their sin? If He, if no one saves us from our sin,
then why is He called Savior? Why did the angel say to Joseph,
“Joseph son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary home as your
wife, because what is conceived in her is from the Holy Spirit.
21 She will give birth to a son, and you are to give him the
name Jesus, because he will save his people from their sins"?
Do we give up Christian teaching entirely?
I apologize for so many questions, but I am woefully confused.
As usual.[/font]
#Post#: 1302--------------------------------------------------
Re: What is the Gospel?
By: Piper Date: April 21, 2015, 9:56 am
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[quote]HereticMouse: I think we have to be careful in using 1
Peter 2:24 as a "general purpose" verse. In context it is in a
passage that refers specifically to slaves[/quote]
[font=trebuchet ms]Yes, I read the context, but fail to see that
verse 24 refers only and specifically to slaves. Verses 22-24
describe what Christ did, and what He did, He did for all His
sheep.[/font]
[quote]Heretic Mouse: I do think that Isaiah 53 refers to
healing. Though I think care is needed there, too - our Spirits
are not healed when we get saved - they are re-created -
webecome new creations, the old has gone the new has
come.[/quote]
[font=trebuchet ms]Perhaps that is how our spirits are healed--
by being recreated. I (my spirit) does not become Christ;
Christ lives in me. I don't entirely cease to be, but I am
changed.[/font]
#Post#: 1304--------------------------------------------------
Re: What is the Gospel?
By: Poppy Date: April 21, 2015, 10:46 am
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To me, in a nutshell, the Gospel is the Good News that through
the death of Jesus on the cross people who are
sinners can be forgiven and reconciled to God and live a better
life because of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.
#Post#: 1305--------------------------------------------------
Re: What is the Gospel?
By: Piper Date: April 21, 2015, 10:48 am
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[font=trebuchet ms]Forgive me, but on further thought, what of
the blessed bread and wine? You, Kerry, agreed that they are
truly changed into the flesh and blood of Christ, and see what
Jesus says, here:
[/font]
[quote][font=arial]Matthew 26:26-28 (NIV)
26 While they were eating, Jesus took bread, and when he had
given thanks, he broke it and gave it to his disciples, saying,
“Take and eat; this is my body.”
27 Then he took a cup, and when he had given thanks, he gave it
to them, saying, “Drink from it, all of you. 28 This is my blood
of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the
forgiveness of sins.[/font][/quote]
[font=trebuchet ms]So, certainly, Christ's blood poured out on
the cross is necessary, in addition to repentance, for the
forgiveness of sins. The Lord, Himself, does not lie. And, of
course, in the overall message, the Good News of Christ includes
what He, Himself, proclaims of His own blood.
How can you possibly circumvent such a thing? And why would you
wish to?[/font]
#Post#: 1306--------------------------------------------------
Re: What is the Gospel?
By: Piper Date: April 21, 2015, 11:05 am
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[font=trebuchet ms]Kerry.
I AM so sorry for peppering you with a million questions, but I
have spent hours trying to understand.[/font]
#Post#: 1308--------------------------------------------------
Re: What is the Gospel?
By: Kerry Date: April 21, 2015, 2:46 pm
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[quote author=HereticMouse link=topic=146.msg1298#msg1298
date=1429622099]
You are sounding a bit all-roads-lead-to-God here, though Kerry.
Though I do tend to agree with you. Evangelicals - and I am one
- do love the idea of a point-in-time conversion, typical of
which is having someone lead another through a form of "sinner's
prayer". I'm less inclined to go with that these days and in my
evangelitic endeavours am less likely to push for a decision
than I am to introduce someone to the tangible love of God.
Even so, reconciliation is clearly through the blood of Jesus
shed on the cross.[/quote]
Reconciliation for everyone immediately without the need for
them to do anything? Was the entire world immediately
reconciled to God as soon as Jesus expired on the Cross?
It is evident to me that the work of Jesus in his life and in
his death is not efficacious unless and until a person makes
right decisions. When a person has faith in God and repents of
his sins, it does not matter if he knows the fine points.
That would be like saying a sick person has to understand how
his medicine was manufactured before it can work. For the sick
person to benefit, he must be willing to do something. It
doesn't matter if he understands things or even knows the name
of the medicine.
We have an interesting account in Matthew 25. Do Christians
believe in such a wonderful Justice? Jesus says he will tell
some people to enter the kingdom, and Jesus says because of
what they did for him. They ask when did they ever do anything
for him, and Jesus answers, " Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as
ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye
have done it unto me."
Note it. He isn't saying, "Enter into the kingdom for you have
all the right ideas about things. You been taught about my
crucifixion and resurrection and believed in them." No, he
does not say that.
They did receive Light from Jesus though, and they did not hide
that Light. Is not every man who enters this world given Light
by Jesus? That is step one, just as Light is step one in
Genesis. If we do not revere the first thing we received,
what good will anything else do us? Coming to the Light and
sharing the Light we already have is far more important than
talking about it and thinking having the right ideas is going to
save us.
Paul hints at this in Romans, writing:
Romans 2:13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God,
but the doers of the law shall be justified.
14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature
the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are
a law unto themselves:
15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their
conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean
while accusing or else excusing one another;)
16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus
Christ according to my gospel.
The work of the law written in their hearts is the New Covenant.
It does not depend on knowledge of the Law of Moses. The Law
of Moses was given after Israel did not want to hear the Voice
of God. When David writes of that, he uses the metaphor of
Israel being sheep and God their Shepherd.
Psalm 95:7 For he is our God; and we are the people of his
pasture, and the sheep of his hand. To day if ye will hear his
voice,
Jesus was preaching the Gospel, I think, when he said his sheep
hear his Voice. His Words were Spirit. Do sheep need to know
if their shepherd will someday lay down his life for them? No.
What they do know is that if there is danger, he will be
willing to lay down his life if need be. If they know that,
they then know they are following someone is not a wolf, out to
devour or fleece them.
I think he was preaching the Gospel with Words of Spirit when he
said, "Come unto me, all ye who labour and I will give you
rest." He did not need to explain the Crucifixion and
Resurrection. He did not promote himself that way; but note
also the idea of "rest" if they obeyed his Voice. Back to
Psalm 95:
7 For he is our God; and we are the people of his pasture, and
the sheep of his hand. To day if ye will hear his voice,
8 Harden not your heart, as in the provocation, and as in the
day of temptation in the wilderness:
9 When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my work.
10 Forty years long was I grieved with this generation, and
said, It is a people that do err in their heart, and they have
not known my ways:
11 Unto whom I sware in my wrath that they should not enter into
my rest.
They did not want to hear and they did not enter into the
eternal rest. Instead of receiving the Law of Love written on
the heart of flesh, they got something written on stone.
The New Covenant requires the circumcision of the old hard heart
so God can give the new heart. That is repentance and being
willing to change for the better when we receive Light.
#Post#: 1309--------------------------------------------------
Re: What is the Gospel?
By: Kerry Date: April 21, 2015, 3:09 pm
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[quote author=HereticMouse link=topic=146.msg1295#msg1295
date=1429614277]
I like the summary of Paul's gospel in 1 cor 15:
1. Let me now remind you, dear brothers and sisters,[a] of the
Good News I preached to you before. You welcomed it then, and
you still stand firm in it. 2 It is this Good News that saves
you if you continue to believe the message I told you—unless, of
course, you believed something that was never true in the first
place.
3 I passed on to you what was most important and what had also
been passed on to me. Christ died for our sins, just as the
Scriptures said. 4 He was buried, and he was raised from the
dead on the third day, just as the Scriptures said. (NLT)
Mike HM
[/quote]Paul is refuting a false teaching in that section.
There were people teaching there was no resurrection of the
dead. This is an outright mischievous doctrine since it denies
the Love of God by making Him indifferent to whether His
children are alive or dead. It is either that, or it would be
that God loves people but is unable to resurrect the dead or
perhaps doesn't know how.
People can say they believe; but if they have the wrong concept
about God, they aren't really believing. We should not believe
God is imperfect in any way. If we believe that, we have an
idol to some extent. To say there is no resurrection is to
deny the Perfection of God one way or another.
The person who has not thought it through fully may not have an
opinion about the resurrection; and he may not have heard of it
even; but as long as he has faith in God and how God is Perfect,
he will be fine. However if he has wrong ideas about God and
believes God is imperfect, his so-called faith is flawed. Paul
says their belief could be "in vain". Some of man's ideas
contradict the Gospel, and this teaching that there is no
resurrection contradicts the Gospel. It is teaching a wrong
god, setting up an idol of sorts -- a god who is either unloving
or lacking in power or wisdom. We ought to believe that when
God gave us life, it was His Will that we be alive. Therefore
we ought not believe He is going to change His Mind or that His
Will is going to be frustrated by Him lacking Power or
Knowledge.
#Post#: 1310--------------------------------------------------
Re: What is the Gospel?
By: Piper Date: April 21, 2015, 4:46 pm
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[font=trebuchet ms]^I'm following closely, Kerry. Trying to.
All of the above seems good and well, wonderful teaching.
What, though, do you make of verse 3:[/font]
[quote][font=arial black]3 I passed on to you what was most
important and what had also been passed on to me. Christ died
for our sins, just as the Scriptures said.[/font] [/quote]
[font=trebuchet ms]What are your thoughts, specifically on verse
3?[/font]
#Post#: 1311--------------------------------------------------
Re: What is the Gospel?
By: Kerry Date: April 21, 2015, 4:48 pm
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[quote author=Piper link=topic=146.msg1301#msg1301
date=1429626226]
Kerry,
You say you have not omitted Christ, but from what you seem to
be saying, He is really not at all necessary to our salvation;
we turn from sin and God does the rest.[/quote]I did not say
that, and I do not think I seemed to be saying that.
[quote]But what of all the verses pertaining to the cross, to
Jesus dying for our sins? If we are forgiven simply on the
basis of repentance, for what did our Lord die?[/quote]To
reverse the curse Adam brought on his children. It is not right
to punish Adam's children for his offense. Jesus came to
correct that problem.
[quote]Do we throw such verses away? Do we claim the verses
lie, that Jesus did not die on the cross to save all people who
turn to Him from their sin? If He, if no one saves us from our
sin, then why is He called Savior? Why did the angel say to
Joseph, “Joseph son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary
home as your wife, because what is conceived in her is from the
Holy Spirit. 21 She will give birth to a son, and you are to
give him the name Jesus, because he will save his people from
their sins"?
Do we give up Christian teaching entirely?
I apologize for so many questions, but I am woefully confused.
As usual.[/quote]
If discussing the Gospel, I prefer to restrict myself to the
passages where that word is used. What does the Bible actually
say about it? The question is not what does the Bible say
about other things. They may be related, of course; but I
prefer to try to limit myself to those passages which actually
mention the word.
I try to get one thing straight in my mind at a time. I put
other things aside momentarily. Once I believe I have the
right definition the word, then I think I can see the Gospel
being preached all through the Bible, even here:
Genesis 4:6 And the Lord said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and
why is thy countenance fallen?
7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou
doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be
his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.
Yes, the coming of Messiah and many other things lay far in the
future; but the promise and message were still the same. If we
have faith in God's Perfect Love and Justice, and if we do
well, we can trust God to set things right. Cain didn't need to
know about the Virgin Birth. He needed to do well and trust
God to see that everything else turned out right. It is not
reasonable to believe we can act like the Devil and then have
God fix things for us when we're working against God. Cain knew
the one thing he needed to know and still failed.
Why do you think Jews believe that there would be a Messiah who
would come? It's not from reading the Old Testament which
seldom uses the word "messiah" that way. Their idea is roughly
how the woman at the well put it. She may have been a
"heretic" in some ways, being a Samaritan, but her belief in a
coming Messiah was completely kosher. "I know that Messias
cometh, which is called Christ: when he is come, he will tell us
all things." It is that faith in God and His Messiah that
made it possible for Abraham to be justified by faith.
We can search the Old Testament, and the idea of King Messiah
isn't in it. There are hints, but they simply don't use the
word "messiah" that way. The idea of King Messiah is derived
in the idea of the Perfect God.
1. God gave dominion of the earth to man. God isn't going to
change His Mind about this. God did not err by making this
gift.
2. Man messed things up miserably and created a situation where
it was impossible for men to come to the proper and full
knowledge about God. Even if men wanted to do well, it wasn't
enough to fix things. Things were so bad man couldn't fix them
on his own.
3. God would send someone as a man to exercise lawful dominion
over the earth and sort things out.
4. Then God could reward those who were willing to turn away
from sin and who wanted to do well, living under the Law of
Love. It is not reasonable to expect God to make errors
permanent. Immortalizing sinful souls would be a horrible
thing. It was possible however to fix men -- justifying them
-- making them "right." I mean in fact, not just in theory or
in a make-believe way where God pretends people are okay when
they aren't.
I see talking too much about what Jesus did or didn't do as a
potential problem if we fail to see our half of it. As you
know, we cannot claim to be part of the Bride of Christ and
continue to behave like pr0stitutes and then believe Jesus is
going to fix everything. A covenant has two parties. Both
parties are expected to do their part. Frankly, I don't worry
so much about what Jesus did or will do. I think about it and
have beliefs; but my faith tells me I don't have to worry about
that. I worry more about whether I will fall short. I have
less faith in myself so that concerns me more. Will Jesus
greet me, saying, "Well done, thou good and faithful servant?"
That is what concerns me.
Can we say we believe in the Power of the Cross by focusing only
on Jesus and then failing to crucify ourselves? Or might that
be having a false christ? A christ who lacks the Power to
change lives?
The message of the Cross is Love. Yes, it's connected to the
Gospel ultimately; and the person who receives the Gospel
ultimately also comes to the cross himself. If we see what
Jesus did and why, we come sooner or later to realize we should
strive to be like him. If we do not, it is a rejection of his
message. The Gospel starts off small and grows. Repentance
is necessary since it is showing we are willing to give up parts
of "self." As we go along, we give up more and more. But the
Gospel cannot take hold in the human heart unless there is a
willingness to cut out the dark spots of the heart. There is
little point in discussing future things if someone is not
willing to take the first step.
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