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#Post#: 1283--------------------------------------------------
Re: What is the Gospel?
By: Piper Date: April 20, 2015, 7:19 pm
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Note: Kerry, our posts are crossing. I'll hit send, and then
read your latest post, but . . . we were writing at the same
time. Might get a bit confusing.
[quote][font=trebuchet ms]Piper: I also think it (the Gospel)
is an announcement that the promised Kingdom of God has come . .
.[/font][/quote]
[quote]Kerry: So do I, but it's a little surprising that it's
before the crucifixion and resurrection. I read it to mean that
if we repent and enter the kingdom, everything else that needs
to follow will follow. If we repent and want to lead better
lives, we can trust God to take care of the rest.[/quote]
[font=trebuchet ms]Not quite sure where you're going in thought.
Where does the cross fit in with your thinking?
Jesus announced the Kingdom of God during His ministry; He is
the King of that Kingdom, and in that respect, the Kingdom had
"come." Peter, in 1 Peter, tells us about the cross of Christ,
as well as carrying our own cross in life:[/font]
[quote][font=arial]1 Peter 2:21-25 (TLB)
21 This suffering is all part of the work God has given you.
Christ, who suffered for you, is your example. Follow in his
steps: 22 He never sinned, never told a lie, 23 never answered
back when insulted; when he suffered he did not threaten to get
even; he left his case in the hands of God who always judges
fairly. 24 He personally carried the load of our sins in his own
body when he died on the cross so that we can be finished with
sin and live a good life from now on. For his wounds have healed
ours! 25 Like sheep you wandered away from God, but now you have
returned to your Shepherd, the Guardian of your souls who keeps
you safe from all attacks.[/font][/quote]
[font=trebuchet ms]The cross is also spoken of here:[/font]
[quote][font=arial]Hebrews 10:5-10 (TLB)
5 That is why Christ said as he came into the world, “O God, the
blood of bulls and goats cannot satisfy you, so you have made
ready this body of mine for me to lay as a sacrifice upon your
altar. 6 You were not satisfied with the animal sacrifices,
slain and burnt before you as offerings for sin. 7 Then I said,
‘See, I have come to do your will, to lay down my life, just as
the Scriptures said that I would.’”
8 After Christ said this about not being satisfied with the
various sacrifices and offerings required under the old system,
9 he then added, “Here I am. I have come to give my life.”
He cancels the first system in favor of a far better one. 10
Under this new plan we have been forgiven and made clean by
Christ’s dying for us once and for all.[/font][/quote]
[font=trebuchet ms]So, once again, I see the Kingdom of God as
the objective of the Gospel of Christ, and (belief in the
sacrifice made upon) the cross as one of the components needed
to reach the objective.
Therefore, Jesus chastised Peter, when Peter declared Jesus
should not go to the cross:[/font]
[quote][font=arial]Matthew 16:22-23 (TLB)
22 But Peter took him aside to remonstrate with him. “Heaven
forbid, sir,” he said. “This is not going to happen to you!”
23 Jesus turned on Peter and said, “Get away from me, you Satan!
You are a dangerous trap to me. You are thinking merely from a
human point of view, and not from God’s.”
[/font][/quote]
[font=trebuchet ms]The cross was God's will for Jesus, brutal as
it is. Reminds me that the suffering we bear may be God's will
for us, as well, though we may not understand what good will
come from our suffering. Jesus suffers, but salvation is
somehow born of that suffering.
Thus we read Paul, speaking of "salvation through faith in the
cross":[/font]
[quote][font=arial]Galatians 5:7-11 (TLB)
7 You were getting along so well. Who has interfered with you to
hold you back from following the truth? 8 It certainly isn’t God
who has done it, for he is the one who has called you to freedom
in Christ. 9 But it takes only one wrong person among you to
infect all the others.
10 I am trusting the Lord to bring you back to believing as I do
about these things. God will deal with that person, whoever he
is, who has been troubling and confusing you.
11 Some people even say that I myself am preaching that
circumcision and Jewish laws are necessary to the plan of
salvation. Well, if I preached that, I would be persecuted no
more—for that message doesn’t offend anyone. The fact that I am
still being persecuted proves that I am still preaching
salvation through faith in the cross of Christ
alone.[/font][/quote]
#Post#: 1284--------------------------------------------------
Re: What is the Gospel?
By: Piper Date: April 20, 2015, 7:44 pm
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[quote]Kerry: For me, the Good News is that God will help us if
we recognize the error of our ways and want to do better. God
will provide a way to help us. That is having faith in God;
and men can have faith in God's ability to save them without
knowing all the details. All those details aren't part of the
Gospel to me. What is critical to me is believing God is
Benevolent and has never abandoned man to a hopeless state. He
is a rewarder of those who seek Him. [/quote]
[font=trebuchet ms]I need to think on this more, but here are my
initial thoughts:
Of course, I believe repentance is necessary for salvation. God
does provide a way to help us, and Jesus could be said to BE
that "Way." I agree, some may not have the "details"; but, even
without the details, the cross of Christ, the sacrifice of
Christ, is still relevant, is it not? The cross is love in
action, yes, but I believe the significance of the cross (the
sacrifice) goes deeper than most of us can fully understand. I
think the Gospel without the cross is not the Gospel of Christ;
it would omit His suffering and death, both born of love and for
the good of mankind. How can we leave that out? We can't, yet,
some people may not hear the 'fullness' of the Gospel, and
living with faith in God, repenting of sin, and believing God
will "help us" certainly will be enough for salvation. (I
think.) God is just. God is fair. And the sacrifice on the
cross still 'lives', regardless, saving those who repent and
come to God. It just may be that some die, never having "heard"
of the cross and what was done there. That is not THEIR fault;
perhaps it is ours.[/font]
#Post#: 1285--------------------------------------------------
Re: What is the Gospel?
By: Piper Date: April 20, 2015, 7:49 pm
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[font=trebuchet ms]This verse comes to me:
[/font]
[quote][font=arial]Romans 10:14(KJV)
14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not
believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have
not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
[/font][/quote]
#Post#: 1287--------------------------------------------------
Re: What is the Gospel?
By: Piper Date: April 20, 2015, 8:23 pm
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[quote]Kerry: The Gospel is said to be "everlasting" in
Revelation.[/quote]
[font=trebuchet ms]The Church speaks of "Covenant History."
If you do a word search on "everlasting covenant", many
beautiful verses come up . . .
Not sure where I'm heading with this, but yes, the Gospel is
everlasting.
You may wish to check out this page, which is from Scott Hahn,
teaching on the "New and Everlasting Covenant":
HTML http://www.salvationhistory.com/studies/lesson/covenant_the_new_and_everlasting_covenant
HTML http://www.salvationhistory.com/studies/lesson/covenant_the_new_and_everlasting_covenant
(You may have to sign up for the lessons, not sure. I think I
did that couple years back. All free.)
The fulfillment of each of the five covenants within God's plan
reaches conclusion in Jesus. Jesus "fulfills" the promises of
each of the five covenants. The Everlasting Covenant ties in,
I'm sure, with the Everlasting Gospel.
Need to think more . . . and get something done 'round here ,
haha . . . :)[/font]
#Post#: 1288--------------------------------------------------
Re: What is the Gospel?
By: Kerry Date: April 20, 2015, 10:10 pm
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I think you're adding things to the mix and making them more
complicated than they need be. You seem to be taking later
developments and later revelations and incorporating them into
the mix.
Scott Hahn may have interesting and even right ideas; but I
don't think his ideas were being broadcast then. I don't think
people were preaching about the death and resurrection of Jesus
before those things occurred.
Nor can I think even the disciples knew, actually knew, that
Jesus was the Messiah for a long time. They saw him as their
Master. They were his sheep, following his Voice, but so far as
I can see he not told them he was the Messiah. I see Peter
telling Jesus that. And if Jesus had also told Peter that, why
did he say to Peter what he did?
Matthew 16:16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the
Christ <Messiah>, the Son of the living God.
17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon
Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but
my Father which is in heaven.
What I see there is that Jesus didn't need to tell Peter that.
He needed to lead Peter and Peter needed to be led. After Peter
was faithful in the smaller things and willingly received
correction, he was rewarded by bigger things. I ask what is
that first seed of faith we must receive? It is tiny. God
doesn't need much to start working; but it may take years to
come to completion.
#Post#: 1293--------------------------------------------------
Re: What is the Gospel?
By: Piper Date: April 21, 2015, 2:46 am
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[quote][font=arial]1 Peter 2:24 (NIV)
24 “He himself bore our sins” in his body on the cross, so that
we might die to sins and live for righteousness; “by his wounds
you have been healed.”[/font][/quote]
[font=trebuchet ms]That sounds like Good News to me. Shall we
acknowledge the Good News Jesus preached, but ignore the Good
News that He bore our sins on the cross? Why would we do that?
If we are not "healed", how can the Kingdom Jesus preached be
within us?
It seems we are not healed by repentance alone. Your version of
the Gospel seems to omit the necessity of Christ; He is reduced
to nothing more than a messenger; we are therefore saved by
repentance, and nothing else is needed.
Is that what you believe?[/font]
#Post#: 1294--------------------------------------------------
Re: What is the Gospel?
By: Piper Date: April 21, 2015, 3:35 am
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[font=arial black]Mark 1:14 Now after that John was put in
prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the
kingdom of God
15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is
at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.[/font]
[font=trebuchet ms]Let's look at the above again. Could Jesus
have been preaching about His death and resurrection? Yes.
What did He mean when He said, "The time is fulfilled"? Didn't
He mean that the time had come that all the prophecies
concerning Him were about to be fulfilled? Including:[/font]
[quote][font=arial]Isaiah 53:5 (NIV)
5 But he was pierced for our transgressions,
he was crushed for our iniquities;
the punishment that brought us peace was on him,
and by his wounds we are healed.[/font][/quote]
[font=trebuchet ms]By His wounds we are healed. Same words as
in 1Peter 2:24 in my previous post.
"The Kingdom of God is at hand." The promised King of the
Kingdom which shall see no end is in your midst.
"Repent."
"Believe the gospel." Believe the Good News that the Promised
One has come to fulfill all that was written of Him. (including
Isaiah 53)[/font]
#Post#: 1295--------------------------------------------------
Re: What is the Gospel?
By: HappyHeretic Date: April 21, 2015, 6:04 am
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I like the summary of Paul's gospel in 1 cor 15:
1. Let me now remind you, dear brothers and sisters,[a] of the
Good News I preached to you before. You welcomed it then, and
you still stand firm in it. 2 It is this Good News that saves
you if you continue to believe the message I told you—unless, of
course, you believed something that was never true in the first
place.
3 I passed on to you what was most important and what had also
been passed on to me. Christ died for our sins, just as the
Scriptures said. 4 He was buried, and he was raised from the
dead on the third day, just as the Scriptures said. (NLT)
Mike HM
#Post#: 1296--------------------------------------------------
Re: What is the Gospel?
By: HappyHeretic Date: April 21, 2015, 6:17 am
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I think we have to be careful in using 1 Peter 2:24 as a
"general purpose" verse. In context it is in a passage that
refers specifically to slaves. Also, I'm not convinced that
Peter was quoting Isaiah 53 in order to teach the slaves about
healing, but about the suffering that Jesus went through in
order to encourage the slaves to keep at it even if their
masters are harsh.
I do think that Isaiah 53 refers to healing. Though I think
care is needed there, too - our Spirits are not healed when we
get saved - they are re-created - webecome new creations, the
old has gone the new has come.
Kind regards,
Mike HM
#Post#: 1297--------------------------------------------------
Re: What is the Gospel?
By: Kerry Date: April 21, 2015, 6:35 am
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[quote author=Piper link=topic=146.msg1293#msg1293
date=1429602363]
[font=trebuchet ms]That sounds like Good News to me. Shall we
acknowledge the Good News Jesus preached, but ignore the Good
News that He bore our sins on the cross? Why would we do that?
If we are not "healed", how can the Kingdom Jesus preached be
within us?
It seems we are not healed by repentance alone. Your version of
the Gospel seems to omit the necessity of Christ; He is reduced
to nothing more than a messenger; we are therefore saved by
repentance, and nothing else is needed.
Is that what you believe?[/font]
[/quote]If you reread my words, I think you will see I am not
omtiting Christ. I said if we are willing to do our part, we
can count on God to do His. I won't quote extensively from
Romans 4-5; but there we see Abraham and others were justified
by their faith.
You can think Jesus preached to the masses about his future
crucifixion and resurrection, but I find the idea hard to
swallow myself. All men need to know is that if they turn from
their sins and seek God, God will do the rest. This was true
for those who lived before Jesus was born, and it's true for
those who have never heard of Jesus. Jesus is not limited by
such things by our lack of ideas. If we come to God with the
right attitude, I believe God will provide everything we need --
and that could include ideas and teachers to steer us in the
right direction in the here and now as well as sending Jesus in
the past and having men write the Bible.
If we love God and have faith in Him, we needn't fret about
things. Everything will work out right in the end. God will
see to that. Do we need to understand the mystery of the
resurrection and how God will do it?
Matthew 6:28 And why take ye thought for raiment? Consider the
lilies of the field, how they grow; they toil not, neither do
they spin:
29 And yet I say unto you, That even Solomon in all his glory
was not arrayed like one of these.
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