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#Post#: 1249--------------------------------------------------
Re: BBC2 - Sex and the church.
DIR By: Piper
Date: April 19, 2015, 12:16 pm
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--- Quote ---
> Kerry: You do not know what a fallen woman is? Come now.
--- End Quote ---
Yes, I know what people mean when they speak of a "fallen
woman," but I suppose I object to the terminology. All of
mankind is "fallen." I've never liked to see labels stamped on
anyone, and such a label suggests no hope for a woman to ever
rise above her ill fate. Perhaps, in the eyes of people, there
was no hope; a woman was 'ruined' in many ways back then. But,
I prefer to see that, in God's eyes, anyone can rise and better
themselves. Certainly, Rahab is an example.
--- Quote ---
> Kerry: You can preach about such things all you want; but
the reality is still there.
--- End Quote ---
I never mean to "preach." I am hardly qualified as a preacher.
I only mean to share what is currently my POV.
--- Quote ---
> Kerry: If a woman was known not to be a virgin, it reduced
her prospects of marriage considerably. Once her reputation
was damaged, the odds were stacked against her.
--- End Quote ---
Yes, I understand that.
As for marriage, if we understand the implications of Jesus
calling His church His "bride" and Himself the "bridegroom",
certainly we can see why marriage is to be taken seriously, and
why the Church came to see marriage as a Sacrament initiated by
Christ.
#Post#: 1250--------------------------------------------------
Re: BBC2 - Sex and the church.
DIR By: Piper
Date: April 19, 2015, 12:40 pm
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--- Quote ---
> Poppy: The Roman church was founded by Emperor Constantine
when he believed the Christian God had helped him win an
important battle. Following on from that more and more was
added to the teachings of Jesus.
--- End Quote ---
I've already explained why things are "added on" to guide the
faithful. Jesus is not here, on earth, to speak directly to us.
Thus, in Catholic belief, to obey the Church is to obey Jesus.
The Church was/is invested with the power of the Holy Spirit by
Jesus, Himself. To understand this, one must study and
understand "binding and loosing", the power given to the
apostles by Jesus, and what it meant in historical context.
This is not to say that individuals are not guided by the
Spirit, as well, in matters pertaining specifically and
personally to them.
As to who founded the Church, a short video that, in all
fairness, deserves attention:
[center]
HTML https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oqLBeCmyaKY&list=PLSp30xPag6ez5FDB9IIYES4SCHWvf9iqm[/center]
#Post#: 1251--------------------------------------------------
Re: BBC2 - Sex and the church.
DIR By: Kerry
Date: April 19, 2015, 1:14 pm
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--- Quote from: Piper link ---
>
> Yes, I know what people mean when they speak of a "fallen
woman," but I suppose I object to the terminology. All of
mankind is "fallen." I've never liked to see labels stamped on
anyone, and such a label suggests no hope for a woman to ever
rise above her ill fate. Perhaps, in the eyes of people, there
was no hope; a woman was 'ruined' in many ways back then. But,
I prefer to see that, in God's eyes, anyone can rise and better
themselves. Certainly, Rahab is an example.
--- End Quote ---
It's just a word. I've had friends of both sexes who had been
"sex workers". I'd rather have them as friends than the
people who paid them for sex. I think I could tell stories
some here would find hard to believe.
--- Quote ---
> I never mean to "preach." I am hardly qualified as a
preacher. I only mean to share what is currently my POV.
--- End Quote ---
I did not mean "you" to mean you personally. I meant it
generically. Take how Muslims preach about the virginity of
women. Now of course, that leads to gay experimentation. They
deny it, but it's a fact. I had a Palestinian admit it once.
He said back in Palestine where girls were closely guarded,
boys would often experiment; but he said here in America we can
have sex with women so why would we do things with guys? The
Muslims can also preach all day about their sexual code; but the
outrageous rapes in England are one result of that culture. An
11 year old girl was raped.
Meanwhile the cultural climate there is to be politically
correct, and few want to say there is a problem with Muslims or
with people from other countries who have different cultural
values. If anyone is "preaching," perhaps it's the BBC who
wants to portray themselves and their listeners as sophisticated
and advanced. Is that true? I think I'd rather live in a
city with a brothel than a city where school girls weren't safe
walking on the streets and where the government turned a blind
eye.
Are the people in Florida really any better than the medieval
people who thought brothels were bad but not as bad as rape?
We saw hundreds of people standing around while a girl was raped
while either drunk or on drugs. Are we any better than the
people of the past? I don't think so. We live in an
imperfect world; and my assumption is there will always be
people who have sex outside of marriage. It seems reasonable to
me that government should try to minimize the damage done to
people. I'd rather see legal brothels where women received
regular check ups and also where they were not in danger of
their lives or under the thumb of pimps or criminal gangs. I'd
rather have it legal than have it underground and so lucrative
that people engage in sex trafficking sometimes holding women
and children against their will.
--- Quote ---
> As for marriage, if we understand the implications of Jesus
calling His church His "bride" and Himself the "bridegroom",
certainly we can see why marriage is to be taken seriously, and
why the Church came to see marriage as a Sacrament initiated by
Christ.
--- End Quote ---
I don't follow the logic. That would mean people weren't married
in the Old Testament.
#Post#: 1255--------------------------------------------------
Re: BBC2 - Sex and the church.
DIR By: Piper
Date: April 19, 2015, 2:29 pm
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Kerry, I checked the box in my account profile saying I don't
want words censored, but it seems they still are. Any ideas how
I can stop that?
--- Quote ---
> Kerry: We live in an imperfect world; and my assumption is
there will always be people who have sex outside of marriage.
It seems reasonable to me that government should try to minimize
the damage done to people. I'd rather see legal brothels where
women received regular check ups and also where they were not in
danger of their lives or under the thumb of pimps or criminal
gangs. I'd rather have it legal than have it underground and so
lucrative that people engage in sex trafficking sometimes
holding women and children against their will.
--- End Quote ---
I do understand your reasoning, I think. It's a choosing of the
lesser of two evils. Similar thought might be the allowing of
abortion clinics because women will get abortions anyway, so
government should make it legally safe for them to do so.
But certainly the Church can not condone these things. So, you
are speaking of separation of church and state?
Yet, in God's eyes, would it be right for a nation to legalize
sin? How would God then look upon that nation?
* * *
--- Quote ---
> Piper: As for marriage, if we understand the implications of
Jesus calling His church His "bride" and Himself the
"bridegroom", certainly we can see why marriage is to be taken
seriously, and why the Church came to see marriage as a
Sacrament initiated by Christ.
--- End Quote ---
--- Quote ---
> Kerry: I don't follow the logic. That would mean people
weren't married in the Old Testament.
>
--- End Quote ---
I don't understand what you mean.
I found this, which perhaps will explain more clearly what I was
trying to express, from the POV of the Catholic Church:
--- Quote ---
> In a sacramental marriage, God's love becomes present to the
spouses in their total union. When the Catholic Church teaches
that marriage between two baptized persons is a sacrament, it is
saying that the couple's relationship expresses in a unique way
the unbreakable bond of love between Christ and his people.
--- End Quote ---
#Post#: 1256--------------------------------------------------
Re: BBC2 - Sex and the church.
DIR By: Kerry
Date: April 19, 2015, 3:07 pm
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--- Quote from: Piper link ---
>
> Kerry, I checked the box in my account profile saying I don't
want words censored, but it seems they still are. Any ideas how
I can stop that?
--- End Quote ---
I checked the same option and words are still censored. I
know some words are censored because advertisers won't run ads
on sites with certain words. Then there are words the
administrator adds. My guess is the first category of words
will remain censored but the second won't. If I have time,
maybe I'll experiment.
--- Quote ---
> I do understand your reasoning, I think. It's a choosing of
the lesser of two evils. Similar thought might be the allowing
of abortion clinics because women will get abortions anyway, so
government should make it legally safe for them to do so.
>
> But certainly the Church can not condone these things. So,
you are speaking of separation of church and state?
>
> Yet, in God's eyes, would it be right for a nation to legalize
sin? How would God then look upon that nation?
--- End Quote ---
As I see it, the problem with abortion laws has always been that
people failed to make convincing secular arguments against it.
They chose to make it religious. I think I could argue against
abortion based solely on secular grounds. I think most
arguments for and against abortion are intellectually dishonest.
What any religion teaches is not relevant to me when it comes to
making laws. I object to Muslims passing laws based on their
religion in countries where they are in the majority. As a
Christian, I don't think they have the right to do that.
Following the Golden Rule, I don't think I as a Christian have
the right to impose my religion on others.
If something is morally wrong, we should be able to see the
harm it does. If something is a sin, we are failing to love
either God or our fellow man. Religion covers the first;
governments should exist to prevent us from committing unloving
acts towards others.
--- Quote ---
> I don't understand what you mean.
--- End Quote ---
I understand the comparison between human marriage and the
relationship of Jesus with the Church. What I don't understand
is the statement that marriage was instituted by Jesus. Weren't
people married before Jesus was born? Surely. So how can we
say it is a sacrament established by Jesus? The same holds
for baptism. Weren't people baptized before Jesus' time? So
how can we say it was established by Jesus?
--- Quote ---
> I found this, which perhaps will explain more clearly what I
was trying to express, from the POV of the Catholic Church:
>
> [quote]In a sacramental marriage, God's love becomes present
to the spouses in their total union. When the Catholic Church
teaches that marriage between two baptized persons is a
sacrament, it is saying that the couple's relationship expresses
in a unique way the unbreakable bond of love between Christ and
his people.
--- End Quote ---
[/quote]That statement confuses me since from what I've read,
it's not exactly what the Catholic Church teaches. If a
Catholic marries someone (baptized or not, Catholic or not)
outside the Catholic Church, it's not recognized as a
legitimate marriage.
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