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#Post#: 1249--------------------------------------------------
Re: BBC2 - Sex and the church.
By: Piper Date: April 19, 2015, 12:16 pm
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[quote]Kerry: You do not know what a fallen woman is? Come
now.[/quote]
[font=trebuchet ms]Yes, I know what people mean when they speak
of a "fallen woman," but I suppose I object to the terminology.
All of mankind is "fallen." I've never liked to see labels
stamped on anyone, and such a label suggests no hope for a woman
to ever rise above her ill fate. Perhaps, in the eyes of
people, there was no hope; a woman was 'ruined' in many ways
back then. But, I prefer to see that, in God's eyes, anyone can
rise and better themselves. Certainly, Rahab is an
example.[/font]
[quote] Kerry: You can preach about such things all you want;
but the reality is still there. [/quote]
[font=trebuchet ms]I never mean to "preach." I am hardly
qualified as a preacher. I only mean to share what is currently
my POV.[/font]
[quote]Kerry: If a woman was known not to be a virgin, it
reduced her prospects of marriage considerably. Once her
reputation was damaged, the odds were stacked against
her.[/quote]
[font=trebuchet ms]Yes, I understand that.
As for marriage, if we understand the implications of Jesus
calling His church His "bride" and Himself the "bridegroom",
certainly we can see why marriage is to be taken seriously, and
why the Church came to see marriage as a Sacrament initiated by
Christ.[/font]
#Post#: 1250--------------------------------------------------
Re: BBC2 - Sex and the church.
By: Piper Date: April 19, 2015, 12:40 pm
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[quote]Poppy: The Roman church was founded by Emperor
Constantine when he believed the Christian God had helped him
win an important battle. Following on from that more and more
was added to the teachings of Jesus.[/quote]
[font=trebuchet ms]I've already explained why things are "added
on" to guide the faithful. Jesus is not here, on earth, to
speak directly to us. Thus, in Catholic belief, to obey the
Church is to obey Jesus. The Church was/is invested with the
power of the Holy Spirit by Jesus, Himself. To understand this,
one must study and understand "binding and loosing", the power
given to the apostles by Jesus, and what it meant in historical
context. This is not to say that individuals are not guided by
the Spirit, as well, in matters pertaining specifically and
personally to them.
As to who founded the Church, a short video that, in all
fairness, deserves attention:[/font]
[center]
HTML https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oqLBeCmyaKY&list=PLSp30xPag6ez5FDB9IIYES4SCHWvf9iqm[/center]
#Post#: 1251--------------------------------------------------
Re: BBC2 - Sex and the church.
By: Kerry Date: April 19, 2015, 1:14 pm
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[quote author=Piper link=topic=140.msg1249#msg1249
date=1429463771]
[font=trebuchet ms]Yes, I know what people mean when they speak
of a "fallen woman," but I suppose I object to the terminology.
All of mankind is "fallen." I've never liked to see labels
stamped on anyone, and such a label suggests no hope for a woman
to ever rise above her ill fate. Perhaps, in the eyes of
people, there was no hope; a woman was 'ruined' in many ways
back then. But, I prefer to see that, in God's eyes, anyone can
rise and better themselves. Certainly, Rahab is an
example.[/font][/quote]It's just a word. I've had friends of
both sexes who had been "sex workers". I'd rather have them
as friends than the people who paid them for sex. I think I
could tell stories some here would find hard to believe.
[quote][font=trebuchet ms]I never mean to "preach." I am hardly
qualified as a preacher. I only mean to share what is currently
my POV.[/font][/quote]I did not mean "you" to mean you
personally. I meant it generically. Take how Muslims preach
about the virginity of women. Now of course, that leads to gay
experimentation. They deny it, but it's a fact. I had a
Palestinian admit it once. He said back in Palestine where
girls were closely guarded, boys would often experiment; but he
said here in America we can have sex with women so why would we
do things with guys? The Muslims can also preach all day
about their sexual code; but the outrageous rapes in England are
one result of that culture. An 11 year old girl was raped.
Meanwhile the cultural climate there is to be politically
correct, and few want to say there is a problem with Muslims or
with people from other countries who have different cultural
values. If anyone is "preaching," perhaps it's the BBC who
wants to portray themselves and their listeners as sophisticated
and advanced. Is that true? I think I'd rather live in a
city with a brothel than a city where school girls weren't safe
walking on the streets and where the government turned a blind
eye.
Are the people in Florida really any better than the medieval
people who thought brothels were bad but not as bad as rape?
We saw hundreds of people standing around while a girl was raped
while either drunk or on drugs. Are we any better than the
people of the past? I don't think so. We live in an
imperfect world; and my assumption is there will always be
people who have sex outside of marriage. It seems reasonable to
me that government should try to minimize the damage done to
people. I'd rather see legal brothels where women received
regular check ups and also where they were not in danger of
their lives or under the thumb of pimps or criminal gangs. I'd
rather have it legal than have it underground and so lucrative
that people engage in sex trafficking sometimes holding women
and children against their will.
[quote]As for marriage, if we understand the implications of
Jesus calling His church His "bride" and Himself the
"bridegroom", certainly we can see why marriage is to be taken
seriously, and why the Church came to see marriage as a
Sacrament initiated by Christ.[/quote]I don't follow the logic.
That would mean people weren't married in the Old Testament.
#Post#: 1255--------------------------------------------------
Re: BBC2 - Sex and the church.
By: Piper Date: April 19, 2015, 2:29 pm
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[font=trebuchet ms]Kerry, I checked the box in my account
profile saying I don't want words censored, but it seems they
still are. Any ideas how I can stop that?[/font]
[quote]Kerry: We live in an imperfect world; and my assumption
is there will always be people who have sex outside of marriage.
It seems reasonable to me that government should try to
minimize the damage done to people. I'd rather see legal
brothels where women received regular check ups and also where
they were not in danger of their lives or under the thumb of
pimps or criminal gangs. I'd rather have it legal than have it
underground and so lucrative that people engage in sex
trafficking sometimes holding women and children against their
will. [/quote]
[font=trebuchet ms]I do understand your reasoning, I think.
It's a choosing of the lesser of two evils. Similar thought
might be the allowing of abortion clinics because women will get
abortions anyway, so government should make it legally safe for
them to do so.
But certainly the Church can not condone these things. So, you
are speaking of separation of church and state?
Yet, in God's eyes, would it be right for a nation to legalize
sin? How would God then look upon that nation?[/font]
* * *
[quote][font=trebuchet ms]Piper: As for marriage, if we
understand the implications of Jesus calling His church His
"bride" and Himself the "bridegroom", certainly we can see why
marriage is to be taken seriously, and why the Church came to
see marriage as a Sacrament initiated by Christ.[/font][/quote]
[quote]Kerry: I don't follow the logic. That would mean people
weren't married in the Old Testament.
[/quote]
[font=trebuchet ms]I don't understand what you mean.
I found this, which perhaps will explain more clearly what I was
trying to express, from the POV of the Catholic Church:[/font]
[quote][font=times new roman]In a sacramental marriage, God's
love becomes present to the spouses in their total union. When
the Catholic Church teaches that marriage between two baptized
persons is a sacrament, it is saying that the couple's
relationship expresses in a unique way the unbreakable bond of
love between Christ and his people.[/font][/quote]
#Post#: 1256--------------------------------------------------
Re: BBC2 - Sex and the church.
By: Kerry Date: April 19, 2015, 3:07 pm
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[quote author=Piper link=topic=140.msg1255#msg1255
date=1429471779]
[font=trebuchet ms]Kerry, I checked the box in my account
profile saying I don't want words censored, but it seems they
still are. Any ideas how I can stop that?[/font][/quote]
I checked the same option and words are still censored. I
know some words are censored because advertisers won't run ads
on sites with certain words. Then there are words the
administrator adds. My guess is the first category of words
will remain censored but the second won't. If I have time,
maybe I'll experiment.
[quote][font=trebuchet ms]I do understand your reasoning, I
think. It's a choosing of the lesser of two evils. Similar
thought might be the allowing of abortion clinics because women
will get abortions anyway, so government should make it legally
safe for them to do so.
But certainly the Church can not condone these things. So, you
are speaking of separation of church and state?
Yet, in God's eyes, would it be right for a nation to legalize
sin? How would God then look upon that nation?[/font][/quote]As
I see it, the problem with abortion laws has always been that
people failed to make convincing secular arguments against it.
They chose to make it religious. I think I could argue against
abortion based solely on secular grounds. I think most
arguments for and against abortion are intellectually dishonest.
What any religion teaches is not relevant to me when it comes to
making laws. I object to Muslims passing laws based on their
religion in countries where they are in the majority. As a
Christian, I don't think they have the right to do that.
Following the Golden Rule, I don't think I as a Christian have
the right to impose my religion on others.
If something is morally wrong, we should be able to see the
harm it does. If something is a sin, we are failing to love
either God or our fellow man. Religion covers the first;
governments should exist to prevent us from committing unloving
acts towards others.
[quote]I don't understand what you mean. [/quote]I understand
the comparison between human marriage and the relationship of
Jesus with the Church. What I don't understand is the statement
that marriage was instituted by Jesus. Weren't people married
before Jesus was born? Surely. So how can we say it is a
sacrament established by Jesus? The same holds for baptism.
Weren't people baptized before Jesus' time? So how can we say
it was established by Jesus?
[quote]I found this, which perhaps will explain more clearly
what I was trying to express, from the POV of the Catholic
Church:
[quote]In a sacramental marriage, God's love becomes present to
the spouses in their total union. When the Catholic Church
teaches that marriage between two baptized persons is a
sacrament, it is saying that the couple's relationship expresses
in a unique way the unbreakable bond of love between Christ and
his people.[/quote]
[/quote]That statement confuses me since from what I've read,
it's not exactly what the Catholic Church teaches. If a
Catholic marries someone (baptized or not, Catholic or not)
outside the Catholic Church, it's not recognized as a
legitimate marriage.
HTML http://www.americancatholic.org/Messenger/Feb2004/Feature2.asp
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