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#Post#: 1160--------------------------------------------------
What do I no longer 'believe'?
By: A nonny mouse Date: April 16, 2015, 4:19 am
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Here I am, tucked away in my own little corner where members who
are 'offended' by the current radically minded 'me' can opt out
and leave me to my personal 'heresies'.
If there is indeed but one true God then to my way of
thinking/believing he has to be ‘God of the entire universe’ and
not just the 'God of Israel', adopted by Western Christendom.
(By 'God of the entire universe' I mean ‘universe’ as we
currently understand it, as distinct from 'God of the universe'
that was limited to the Hebrew/Egyptian confines of the
15th-11th century BC.)
In my ‘book’ myths and fables such as those of the Genesis
creation and Noah’s Ark stories have no more authenticity than
do the fables surrounding the ‘Pillars of Hercules’, purporting
the world to be ‘flat’, off the edge of which sailors would fall
if daring to venture beyond the Straights of Gibraltar.
That being the extent of the knowledge of our cosmos that
limited those who wrote what we call the old Testament.
‘Man’, (including Moses and the Prophets) has, in my opinion,
always had the propensity to respond to his inner conviction of
an unknown paranormal realm by ‘creating’ God in his own
image/imagination and committing his imaginings to ‘holy
writings’.
Christ (in my opinion) came to correct all such imaginings,
replacing such writings with the one single law of ‘Love’
written (if I might indulge in a borrowed phrase of Christendom)
only in the ‘fleshy tables of man’s heart’.
Man however, as is his wont, reverted to his propensity to
create God in his own image and, shortly after the death of
Christ, immediately began to reverse the purpose of Christ’s
‘mission’ by reviving and adding to man’s earliest ‘holy
writings’ in the form of a new composite holy text book.
So, here we are today, ‘Christ Within’ by means of ‘Faith’
supplanted by ‘God in a text book’ by means of ‘Religion’.
And that (as ironic as you can get) is ‘this man’ having created
God in my own image/imagination.
#Post#: 1162--------------------------------------------------
Re: What do I no longer 'believe'?
By: Kerry Date: April 16, 2015, 6:28 am
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[quote author=Way of the Spirit link=topic=133.msg1160#msg1160
date=1429175980]
Here I am, tucked away in my own little corner where members who
are 'offended' by the current radically minded 'me' can opt out
and leave me to my personal 'heresies'.
If there is indeed but one true God then to my way of
thinking/believing he has to be ‘God of the entire universe’ and
not just the 'God of Israel', adopted by Western Christendom.
(By 'God of the entire universe' I mean ‘universe’ as we
currently understand it, as distinct from 'God of the universe'
that was limited to the Hebrew/Egyptian confines of the
15th-11th century BC.)[/quote]
If you read the Bible carefully, you will find that Moses did
not describe the LORD God of Israel as the God of the universe
or even of the entire earth. He wrote:
Deuteronomy 6:4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one Lord:
This does not say the LORD God is the God of the Gentiles.
Nor should we assume that when Jesus told his disciples to
pray, "Our Father," this meant everyone else has the same
Father. In fact, Jesus told some people they didn't! He told
them they had the serpent for their father.
The commandment was also given to them not to have other gods
before the LORD God. I also ask if the LORD God is already
God over the whole earth, why did the prophet write:
Zechariah 14:9 And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in
that day shall there be one Lord, and his name one.
For Israel, there was already one Lord established; but in the
future, there will be one Lord for all the earth. I refer you
also to:
Micah 4:5 For all people will walk every one in the name of his
god, and we will walk in the name of the LORD our God for ever
and ever.
[quote]In my ‘book’ myths and fables such as those of the
Genesis creation and Noah’s Ark stories have no more
authenticity than do the fables surrounding the ‘Pillars of
Hercules’, purporting the world to be ‘flat’, off the edge of
which sailors would fall if daring to venture beyond the
Straights of Gibraltar.
That being the extent of the knowledge of our cosmos that
limited those who wrote what we call the old
Testament.[/quote]Ha, ha, I'd say you lack the proper tradition
to interpret it. Nor can I claim it. The Sacred Tradition out
of which Jesus and Paul came does not divulge its inner
teachings on the meaning of Genesis except on a one to one
basis. It's never been committed to paper. One must have the
correct tradition in order to understand the Bible properly.
We can see how this is demonstrated by a remark Jesus made when
he told some of his critics they lacked the ability to interpret
the Scriptures.
Matthew 22:28 Therefore in the resurrection whose wife shall she
be of the seven? for they all had her.
29 Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the
scriptures, nor the power of God.
30 For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in
marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.
Can anyone tell me what Scriptures Jesus meant by this remark?
While I have had not instruction from a Jew in the matter and
cannot claim that Tradition's understanding of Genesis, I'd
hazard to say it has to do with Genesis. Yet people make it
about a talking snake. . . in physical terms that may confound
the mind.
[quote]‘Man’, (including Moses and the Prophets) has, in my
opinion, always had the propensity to respond to his inner
conviction of an unknown paranormal realm by ‘creating’ God in
his own image/imagination and committing his imaginings to ‘holy
writings’.[/quote]Here you are venturing into treacherous
waters, for we will be judged as we have judged others.
[quote]Christ (in my opinion) came to correct all such
imaginings, replacing such writings with the one single law of
‘Love’ written (if I might indulge in a borrowed phrase of
Christendom) only in the ‘fleshy tables of man’s
heart’.[/quote]Bah, what sort of comment is this when Jesus said
of Moses:
John 5:46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me;
for he wrote of me.
And how can you imagine Jesus was "correcting" Moses when he
also said:
Matthew 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the
prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
I've seen people try to warp that passage to mean Jesus did away
with the law of Moses by making the word 'fulfill" mean "do away
with." That is an obvious rebellion against the clear meaning
of the word "fulfill."
[quote]Man however, as is his wont, reverted to his propensity
to create God in his own image and, shortly after the death of
Christ, immediately began to reverse the purpose of Christ’s
‘mission’ by reviving and adding to man’s earliest ‘holy
writings’ in the form of a new composite holy text book.
So, here we are today, ‘Christ Within’ by means of ‘Faith’
supplanted by ‘God in a text book’ by means of ‘Religion’.
And that (as ironic as you can get) is ‘this man’ having created
God in my own image/imagination.[/quote]
If all you can claim for yourself is that you have created God
in your own imagination and may be in error, perhaps you should
avoid accusing Moses and the prophets of erring? You seem to
be saying, "I don't know and Moses and the prophets didn't know
anymore than I do." Such a view is dismal and depressing and
probably unwise as well. You appear to believe nobody could know
more than you do. That seems a little vain to me.
That would be fine perhaps if it did not imply that God wants
people to be ignorant; but if we say we are ignorant and nobody
could ever know more than we do, we are saying God has not
provided a way for us to come to know more. That is making a
statement about God which I do not believe anyone should make.
If we know little, we should avoid making statements that above
our understanding, especially about God.
#Post#: 1165--------------------------------------------------
Re: What do I no longer 'believe'?
By: A nonny mouse Date: April 16, 2015, 7:59 am
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Thanks Kerry, but you base virtually everything on what I
believe 'man' to have imagined and written about God.
Take away the 'Bible' as a 'Holy Text Book' and all you have are
the writings of 'man' based on his 'imaginings' (IMO)......some
of which may be close to the mark and others which may be very
wide of it due to the limited cosmic, and academic knowledge of
the writers at the time when the imaginings were recorded (and
no one can doubt the extremity of those limitations in the light
of what we know today).
'Religiously' inclined people, and I count you as one, believe
in all the paranormal claims about how God having actually done
what Moses and the Prophets claimed him to have done (burning
bushes and tablets of stone etc.).
That's where I'm coming from.
#Post#: 1166--------------------------------------------------
Re: What do I no longer 'believe'?
By: Kerry Date: April 16, 2015, 9:01 am
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[quote author=Way of the Spirit link=topic=133.msg1165#msg1165
date=1429189149]
Thanks Kerry, but you base virtually everything on what I
believe 'man' to have imagined and written about God.
Take away the 'Bible' as a 'Holy Text Book' and all you have are
the writings of 'man' based on his 'imaginings' (IMO)......some
of which may be close to the mark and others which may be very
wide of it due to the limited cosmic, and academic knowledge of
the writers at the time when the imaginings were recorded (and
no one can doubt the extremity of those limitations in the light
of what we know today).
'Religiously' inclined people, and I count you as one, believe
in all the paranormal claims about how God having actually done
what Moses and the Prophets claimed him to have done (burning
bushes and tablets of stone etc.).
That's where I'm coming from.
[/quote]Perhaps we should consider what Solomon wrote:
Ecclesiastes 12:10 The preacher sought to find out acceptable
words: and that which was written was upright, even words of
truth.
11 The words of the wise are as goads, and as nails fastened by
the masters of assemblies, which are given from one shepherd.
12 And further, by these, my son, be admonished: of making many
books there is no end; and much study is a weariness of the
flesh.
13 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and
keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.
14 For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every
secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.
Anyone who neglects do good when he can where he can do good and
who does evil when he knows it is evil cannot expect to profit
by reading books. There are no shortcuts like becoming as
wise as the serpent or by imitating Eve who wanted to be as wise
as God. The person who reads the Bible or any other holy book
trying to heap up knowledge or wisdom so he take shortcuts and
defy the Law of Love will fall into error and may even believe
he is being led by God.
[quote author=Way of the Spirit link=topic=133.msg1165#msg1165
date=1429189149]
Thanks Kerry, but you base virtually everything on what I
believe 'man' to have imagined and written about God.
Take away the 'Bible' as a 'Holy Text Book' and all you have are
the writings of 'man' based on his 'imaginings' (IMO)......some
of which may be close to the mark and others which may be very
wide of it due to the limited cosmic, and academic knowledge of
the writers at the time when the imaginings were recorded (and
no one can doubt the extremity of those limitations in the light
of what we know today).
'Religiously' inclined people, and I count you as one, believe
in all the paranormal claims about how God having actually done
what Moses and the Prophets claimed him to have done (burning
bushes and tablets of stone etc.).
That's where I'm coming from.
[/quote]I did not view the Bible as a "take it all or reject it
all" proposition. Perhaps some books were valid while others
weren't. For years I wasn't sure about Esther and other books.
As for the burning bush, I don't know if I've discussed what I
believe about that. Was it a physical fire and a physical
bush? I don't know that it was. What I do believe is that
trees are symbols of man. (Moses wrote that man is a tree of
the field.) The Sacred Fire appeared, it is said, in a
thornbush. Why a thornbush? Because that is one of the
lowliest of plants. And for the same reason too that Jesus had
a crown of thorns. God can manifest in the lowliest of
things. Can you believe that the Sacred Fire can manifest in
men? In humble men?
Moses was also told the earth beneath his feet was holy. Yes, I
believe that is true too. "How beautiful are the feet. . . . "
I believe his feet were holy, and I believe Jesus made the
feet of his disciples holy. I also believe Abraham's feet were
holy. I also say if someone is in the right mind of
contemplating the Divine, the angels can see where his feet have
been since he leaves fiery footprints on the earth.
When it says the angel of the LORD appeared, I believe the voice
Moses heard was that of his father. Does that astonish you?
I think you err when you write about the "limited cosmic, and
academic knowledge of the writers at the time." What need
does anyone have of such knowledge if he has spiritual eyes and
ears? The major problem of Christianity in my opinion, is that
its leaders are all too often spiritually blind and deaf. They
are the blind leading the blind. All they have is their
"limited knowledge" about things from the material perspective
and speculations about the spiritual worlds they inherited from
other men in the past who were as blind as they are.
To keep the correct Tradition alive, the leaders of that
Tradition must ensure the spiritually blind do not usurp the
Tradition.
Who do you think could teach you better about angels: Someone
who has seen them and talked to them and read the Bible, or
someone who has read the Bible and who's never seen an angel but
who believes things someone else told him?
When I look at Christian authors whose writings were not
included in the Bible, I consider their credentials. I take
their writings and statements a lot more seriously if they
weren't spiritually blind and deaf. I dismiss others, people
like Augustine and Justin Martyr. I am skeptical of everything
Eusebius wrote; and I would not trust anything Ambrose wrote.
But I can embrace things from St. Teresa of Avila or St.
Catherine of Sienna as very valuable. Few people today would
find some things Padre Pio wrote acceptable; but I think I
understand him and agree. I got into a sc**** once with a
Catholic over something St. Francis allegedly said to one of his
monks . . . after his death when he appeared to the friar.
The Catholic said it wasn't possible; but I told him the book it
was in, and whose imprimatur it had. And I agreed with what
Francis said -- but that's not standard Catholic teaching. Nor
are some of the things Padre Pio wrote.
That is one of the problems I have with the Catholic Church in
fact. They put more faith in dry ideas passed down for
generations while neglecting the living testimony of their
saints. It is okay to have some faith in dry ideas of
traditions as long as we hope someday to see the truth for
ourselves.
If someone finds the correct teacher within a correct Tradition,
that teacher does not try to brainwash him. He will tell the
student many things which the student needs to adopt temporarily
as true without question; but eventually he will see they are
true. He will see for himself. What do I mean?
Suppose you were at my house and asked me how to get to the
closest grocery store. I would give you directions. You would
believe me; but you would not know if I was right unless you
followed my directions. If you arrived at the store
successfully, then and only then would you know. What we are
missing, generally speaking, are teachers who have been to the
store themselves and who can tell you how to get there yourself.
Most people are as uncertain about things as you are, having
never seen things for themselves; but most people won't admit it
or maybe they're afraid to admit it. I only started making
progress myself when I admitted I knew many things but I knew
nothing of any value. I knew nothing of any value. I said,
"If there is a God, I know nothing about Him." I was content
then to let God be whatever God is, not trying to project my own
views onto Him.
I even faced that horrible question: What if the most powerful
being in the universe was evil? Would I worship such a being
because of his power or detest him for his evil? I would
detest him and oppose him. If that's the way the universe is,
then I hope the most powerful being would kill me since I
wouldn't want to exist in his universe.
#Post#: 1167--------------------------------------------------
Re: What do I no longer 'believe'?
By: A nonny mouse Date: April 16, 2015, 9:25 am
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Kerry, I believe that we each search with sincerity.
But I perceive a difference.
Whereas you probably search deeper and harder than I.....and
find 'answers'..... I, on the other hand, search less deeply and
with less dedication.....and only find 'questions'.
I look about me (maybe as did Solomon) and maybe I 'give up too
easily' by falling back on my conclusion that God wishes to
maintain the difference between 'the divine' and the 'mortal' by
not revealing his detailed will and intent to the degree that I
conclude 'man' to have 'imagined' and recorded.
#Post#: 1168--------------------------------------------------
Re: What do I no longer 'believe'?
By: Piper Date: April 16, 2015, 12:41 pm
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[font=trebuchet ms]Mike,
Your paintings?
Your hymns?
Your poems?
If you must forget Scripture for now, then forget it.
Do this one little thing with what faith you have, this one
positive thing.
You seem so troubled. Refocus, or at least balance your
thoughts.
Embrace what you can. One tiny mustard seed.
Make something, anything beautiful from your faith, and it will
grow.
God will help you.
I will not be ashamed to say that I see God more clearly in
nature than in the Bible.
My life is royally messed up right now, and I take more solace
from nature than Scripture.
God speaks to us in the way we can hear.
Lift that stone. He is there, and all is not lost.[/font]
#Post#: 1169--------------------------------------------------
Re: What do I no longer 'believe'?
By: A nonny mouse Date: April 16, 2015, 1:22 pm
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Nancy, for me it's all about 'resolution'.
All the questions, all the different ambiguities, all the
denominations, all the different religions, the ravages of time,
the effect of all the different cultures......
What I have set out is my way of resolving it all....and it
leaves me feeling "honest to God".
#Post#: 1170--------------------------------------------------
Re: What do I no longer 'believe'?
By: Poppy Date: April 16, 2015, 1:31 pm
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[quote author=Way of the Spirit link=topic=133.msg1169#msg1169
date=1429208558]
Nancy, for me it's all about 'resolution'.
All the questions, all the different ambiguities, all the
denominations, all the different religions, the ravages of time,
the effect of all the different cultures......
What I have set out is my way of resolving it all....and it
leaves me feeling "honest to God".
[/quote]
All those things Mike, but only one Jesus. And it is him we
should focus on above all else.
#Post#: 1178--------------------------------------------------
Re: What do I no longer 'believe'?
By: Piper Date: April 17, 2015, 4:39 am
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[font=trebuchet ms]No point being anything other than honest
with God, Mike.[/font]
#Post#: 1181--------------------------------------------------
Re: What do I no longer 'believe'?
By: Kerry Date: April 17, 2015, 8:02 am
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[quote author=Way of the Spirit link=topic=133.msg1167#msg1167
date=1429194349]
Kerry, I believe that we each search with sincerity.
But I perceive a difference.
Whereas you probably search deeper and harder than I.....and
find 'answers'..... I, on the other hand, search less deeply and
with less dedication.....and only find 'questions'.
I look about me (maybe as did Solomon) and maybe I 'give up too
easily' by falling back on my conclusion that God wishes to
maintain the difference between 'the divine' and the 'mortal' by
not revealing his detailed will and intent to the degree that I
conclude 'man' to have 'imagined' and recorded.
[/quote]You think you know something about God when you don't.
From the Tao Te Ching:
71. To know that you do not know is highest,
To not know but think you know is flawed.
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