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#Post#: 1386--------------------------------------------------
Re: The uniqueness of the Book of Enoch
By: Piper Date: April 23, 2015, 7:06 pm
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[font=trebuchet ms]Brad, do you believe, as Kerry said, that
there may still be Watchers around? Did the flood kill only
their mixed offspring? Aren't angels immortal beings? So,
while they may have been killed in the physical sense, wouldn't
they have survived spiritually?
Or am I all mixed up?
Need to read Kerry's post, above . . .[/font]
#Post#: 1388--------------------------------------------------
Re: The uniqueness of the Book of Enoch
By: Piper Date: April 23, 2015, 7:28 pm
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[font=trebuchet ms]Kerry, much is over my head. Yesterday, I
sampled a book on astral projection, and read a bit about the
astral plane and how it consists of the ideas and energies
produced on earth. How it is a place some travel during obe's.
I think my obe's remained very close to the surface, and I've
definitely experienced lucid dreaming, but not sure I've
projected. Although I read that lucid dreaming can lead to
astral projection; you realize you're within a dream and then
take control? I found it fascinating, but got a bit confused
with it all (the differences between obe's, astral projection,
and lucid dreaming, and how one flows into the next). Perhaps
another topic . . .
I did find a simpler, more basic book that I'm reading. It's
available online:
HTML http://www.robertpeterson.org/obebook.html
HTML http://www.robertpeterson.org/obebook.html
[/font]
#Post#: 1389--------------------------------------------------
Re: The uniqueness of the Book of Enoch
By: Piper Date: April 23, 2015, 7:33 pm
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[font=trebuchet ms]Someone once suggested to me that the
offspring of the Watchers's union with human women died
physically in the flood, but survived in the spiritual realm,
and are now what we call "demons."[/font]
#Post#: 1392--------------------------------------------------
Re: The uniqueness of the Book of Enoch
By: Kerry Date: April 23, 2015, 9:01 pm
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[quote author=Piper link=topic=130.msg1388#msg1388
date=1429835335]
[font=trebuchet ms]Kerry, much is over my head. Yesterday, I
sampled a book on astral projection, and read a bit about the
astral plane and how it consists of the ideas and energies
produced on earth. How it is a place some travel during obe's.
I think my obe's remained very close to the surface, and I've
definitely experienced lucid dreaming, but not sure I've
projected. Although I read that lucid dreaming can lead to
astral projection; you realize you're within a dream and then
take control? I found it fascinating, but got a bit confused
with it all (the differences between obe's, astral projection,
and lucid dreaming, and how one flows into the next). Perhaps
another topic . . .
I did find a simpler, more basic book that I'm reading. It's
available online:
HTML http://www.robertpeterson.org/obebook.html
HTML http://www.robertpeterson.org/obebook.html
[/font]
[/quote]If something is unpleasant, odds are you're on the
astral plane. If it's a nightmare or you're being chased or out
of control, it's definitely the astral plane -- with the soul
wandering about without the "proper mind". Without that proper
mind, the "soul" can wander about -- without the proper mind,
in the grave there is no remembrance of God. But at times you
can go to the astral plane (or sea) to preach or rescue souls.
If we pray for someone and he's trapped in the sea, angels go
and inform him who he is and how he can get out. It horrifies
me when people refuse to pray for the dead.
Still I agree with the Jews -- a year is enough. If someone is
trapped in unpleasant places after a year, you're wasting your
time continuing to pray. The angels may go and rescue him again
and again; but if he wants to return to hellish places, there is
not much good in continuing to pray after a year.
If it's a lucid dream, it means you have your mind with you.
That's fine. Even if you visit hellish places, it's fine, since
you shouldn't get trapped. The key there is to have both soul
and mind together -- in agreement. When we feel one way and
think another, we're double-minded -- and after death, that can
cause trouble. While the body is alive, it attracts them both
back to it -- and thus life in physical body is a valuable way
to educate the soul so it does not wander off by itself. If the
soul is not disciplined to "love God" -- and we are told to love
God with "all your soul", it really is in peril I think.
Without the physical body to anchor it and bring it back and
without a rational mind, it can get into trouble. [quote
author=Piper link=topic=130.msg1389#msg1389 date=1429835598]
[font=trebuchet ms]Someone once suggested to me that the
offspring of the Watchers's union with human women died
physically in the flood, but survived in the spiritual realm,
and are now what we call "demons."[/font]
[/quote]I've studied magic, and I think I could probably
manufacture a demon or two. Not advisable to do since we reap
what we sow. The term"demon" is vague, of course. There are
different kinds. The disciples could handle some but then they
ran into one they couldn't. It was a different sort.
I think it is very dangerous to go to sleep if angry with
someone. It is dangerous, if angry, to vent verbally out loud.
Very. Do not let the sun go down on your wrath is very
important advice. The person who is angry and who goes to
sleep can send out all sorts of entities that some might call
demons. The entities we send out can do all kinds of things.
They can influence the weather for example. They can agitate
other humans like mosquitoes biting them -- they can form swarms
like locusts that look like dark clouds. I saw a dark cloud
once when out of the body, and when I got up closer to see what
they were they were like a swarm of nasty insects. I'd say
they were minor demons put out by people which had collected
into a swarm. Oh yes, some of them are "in prison" now too. If
they were all unleashed on man now, man wouldn't stand a chance.
So they're in prison for the moment; and when man is strong
enough to deal with the demonic thought-forms he's put out,
they'll be let out. And then you have the black magicians who
would love to summon these hoards of locusts now to create panic
and chaos so devastating, it would be too much for man to bear.
I know other people have their views about the locusts in
Revelation; but I think I've seen some "locusts" a little like
that. John's description is telling, of course -- the various
parts of their bodies tell you which cherub and what plane that
part operates on. Teeth of lion -- fallen nature of fire or
spirit. Hair of women -- female counterpart of cherub of man
in air or mind. Stings of scorpions -- perversion of Eagle
nature -- attacking the emotions of the soul at the level of
water or the astral plane.
Another terrible part about that is when people produce such
things, they're weakening themselves. They are taking part of
their own substances and making these things and then sending
them out into the world. We can't "create" spirit -- but we can
take some of our own and send it forth -- but that is rare, I'd
say. Mostly it's bits of our minds and souls we scatter around.
[quote author=Piper link=topic=130.msg1374#msg1374
date=1429818225]
Is it conceivable that some bloodlines in people might yet
contain blood from the "Watchers" in varying amounts (angelic
blood), possibly accounting, in part, for those who seem to have
perception and/or powers appearing to be what we might call
"supernatural"? Could angel blood mixing with human produce
such a manifestation? Could or can spiritual power be passed
through blood? It might explain a few things. And, of course,
within free will is the question of "whom shall we
serve?"[/quote]
My own belief is that what we think of as bloodlines is more
spiritual than physical. The soul is not a simple thing but
partly made up in part of the substance of the parents. The
male component is obstinate and much harder to fix. The female
is more fluid and far easier to fix.
Take the "cursed" tribes of Moab and Ammon. Their male
offspring were considered so horrible, they could convert to
Judaism but they could never be adopted into Israel and
considered part of Israel. That rule didn't apply to Ruth
however. All she needed to do was to convert to the worship of
God; and she was then considered part of Israel and her children
would be too. You can see in Patrick's list of ancestors how
the male line back to Adam and Noah is always male-male-male.
The male half of fallen man could not be fixed then spiritually
by intermarrying with women of Israel; but the female half could
be fixed and intermarry with the male Adamic line. That is why
I think Patrick's list contains so many strange women from
"disreputable" backgrounds. They could convert something in
their soul-natures that the men found much harder.
I think that also explains why the real conflict has been been
between the seed of the serpent and the seed of the woman.
Something may have changed after the Virgin Birth. It appears
to me that after that, the fallen male-soul nature could be
changed more easily. Gentile men could convert and have their
natures changed in a way that wasn't possible before. So it
seems to me. This appears -- and I speculate now -- to be
connected with how Jesus could be called a "son of David" if
Joseph was not his father. The often proposed argument that
Mary was of the tribe of Judah and a descendant of David doesn't
work -- the Messianic line is never traced through the female
side. Moreover her cousin was a Levite, married to a priest,
suggesting to me Mary was also a Levite. I see the proper male
"image and likeness" being transmitted to a male body and soul
without the need for a physical man as father with the same
male image and likeness traced back to David, Noah and Adam.
Up to that time, although the male line of Israel was pure or
clean, it was not altogether clean. Some impurities remained as
the result of the pre-Flood error and the fall of Adam. Jesus
can speak the "Word" that makes clean too.
John 15:3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken
unto you.
The same "Word" that "became flesh" in the body of Jesus and
became the glorified spiritual body later is also engrafted in
believers. This appears able to change the male-soul-nature
in a way that was not possible before the incarnation of Jesus.
It meant Gentile men could be changed in a way they couldn't
before. So I believe.
Now of course, for the proper male half of the image and
likeness of God to manifest, there had to be the proper female
half as mother.
[quote]Makes me think of the Eucharist. If the wine becomes the
literal blood of Christ, and spiritual power is passed through
blood, then we would, conceivably be strengthened in that way--
a passing on of divine light, including eternal life. Thus
Jesus says, "Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has
eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day."
That is pretty awesome. Explains many things about blood and
its use in Scripture, and . . . OMG, just how it is we are saved
by the blood of the lamb!
If one has traces of angelic blood, and then drinks of the cup
of our Lord's blood, I see a world of possibility opening. My
mind goes strange places. This is the stuff novels are born of.
Are there hints of truth, even in fiction? What of divinity is
passed through blood? I think perhaps I'm touching on something
important here, but can't quite wrap my mind around it. Must
think and read . . .
Thoughts, please?[/quote]
Do you know what Hitler was trying to do? He came out of an
occult tradition -- one that had some truths too. But he
thought he could resurrect the hierarchy of the old gods by his
genetic program.
Did you know that many kings and queens of this world can claim
to have "gods" in their ancestry? That is not necessarily a
bad thing; but it can be very bad if they think they deserve to
be worshiped as gods. Queen Elizabeth for example can trace
her roots back to Wodin; but she would never say people should
worship her as a goddess. Still I believe she is the rightful
sovereign there, with there being something to the "Divine Right
of Kings."
Think of the kings in the Bible who were legitimate kings but
who veered off and imagined they were gods and should be
worshiped. When they exceeded their bounds, God brought them
down, just as Nebuchadnezzar was, as Pharoah was, as the Prince
of Tyre was -- not to mention Alexander the Great and the Roman
Emperors who said they were gods.
Pilate's authority did come from God as did all the Roman
authority. They had to be given the opportunity to change for
the better and to rule correctly. When they did not, then they
could be brought down and replaced.
Oppressing the innocent is one thing that enables God to remove
the wicked. Thus Israel would become "sitting ducks" at times.
Both Egypt and Babylon were supposed to rule over Israel since
Israel had fallen into wickedness and needed reproof; but both
exceeded their limits and were overly harsh. The fallen
spiritual hierarchy could then be removed and replaced. If
Jesus had been guilty of anything, the Roman empire couldn't
have been brought down by his crucifixion. The barbaric and
contemptuous sense of justice Pilate had, condemning the
innocent to placate the guilty agitators was against the Law of
Free Will.
Note that Jesus was ready to have swords if the Jews tried to
kill him. If anyone killed him, it had to be the Romans! Their
salvation depended on it. I identify the Romans with the
Edomites, the perpetual problem for Israel; and I don't think
the problem with the Edomites is completely solved yet. Pages
could probably be written about the history in the Bible about
the Edomites.
Remember how Esau's marriage grieved Jacob? Some Jews say
Jacob could have prevented a lot of future trouble if he had
offered Dinah to Esau as a wife when they met later but instead
he hid her in a chest. Could be, it makes sense to me since
Esau's offspring would not have all been to the problematical
wife or wives.
Note too that Esau correctly was born first with the birthright.
He had to be given the chance to have it, had to have the
opportunity to exercise it and enjoy it. When he messed up,
then it was fine for Jacob to "steal" it. One has to be clever
as the serpent to outwit the serpent.
#Post#: 1422--------------------------------------------------
Re: The uniqueness of the Book of Enoch
By: bradley Date: April 24, 2015, 9:34 am
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[quote author=Piper link=topic=130.msg1386#msg1386
date=1429834014]
[font=trebuchet ms]Brad, do you believe, as Kerry said, that
there may still be Watchers around? Did the flood kill only
their mixed offspring? Aren't angels immortal beings? So,
while they may have been killed in the physical sense, wouldn't
they have survived spiritually?
Or am I all mixed up?
Need to read Kerry's post, above . . .[/font]
[/quote]
Angels are only immortal in the sense of stars being immortal,
they can last for millions or billions of years in their current
form, but the Spirit continues on when the body dies, and I have
no doubt its so with angels as well. In Enoch later on, it
tells of them or at least some of them being imprisoned after
the rebellion that led to earth being cleansed in water. Their
offspring died physically, but the spirits of the children, not
being completely of heaven or completely of earth are trapped
here on earth, spirits roaming the earth, most of them angry at
God and man for their misery. They are the demons. They can
still talk to their angelic fathers, getting advice (none good
for us) on what to do, to prepare the way for Their return.
#Post#: 1423--------------------------------------------------
Re: The uniqueness of the Book of Enoch
By: bradley Date: April 24, 2015, 9:46 am
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I dont believe that anyone can create demons apart from the way
done in the pre-flood world. I believe we can summon a demon
if we are so foolish to do so (or it can merely choose to
whisper things to our conscious mind) , and it will tell you
lies that will fill your heart with evil if you believe what
they say. Like most liars, they speak some truth mixed in with
lies to further confuse us, like the serpent in the garden.
That serpent is identified by name in Enoch, but he is not the
Great satan, just "a" satan.
#Post#: 1435--------------------------------------------------
Re: The uniqueness of the Book of Enoch
By: Piper Date: April 24, 2015, 1:38 pm
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[quote author=bradley link=topic=130.msg1422#msg1422
date=1429886099]
Angels are only immortal in the sense of stars being immortal,
they can last for millions or billions of years in their current
form, but the Spirit continues on when the body dies, and I have
no doubt its so with angels as well. In Enoch later on, it
tells of them or at least some of them being imprisoned after
the rebellion that led to earth being cleansed in water. Their
offspring died physically, but the spirits of the children, not
being completely of heaven or completely of earth are trapped
here on earth, spirits roaming the earth, most of them angry at
God and man for their misery. They are the demons. They can
still talk to their angelic fathers, getting advice (none good
for us) on what to do, to prepare the way for Their return.
[/quote]
[font=trebuchet ms]Yes, that is how I understand it. Thanks,
Brad.[/font]
[quote]I dont believe that anyone can create demons apart from
the way done in the pre-flood world.[/quote]
[font=trebuchet ms]I, too, wondered over "manufacturing" demons.
Although I can grasp that our anger and/or negative emotions
and sin might produce a "sea" of trouble in the astral plane.
It seems, from reading Kerry's post, that praying without
ceasing and constant recognition, worship, and remembrance of
God affords us protection, both here and in every other realm
that might exist. That is the bad thing about the books I've
seen on such things as astral projection-- they seldom, if ever,
mention God.
Was pondering your warnings to me years ago, concerning Watchers
and how, as both you and Kerry believe, they may still exist. I
have not forgotten, although I understood less back then.[/font]
#Post#: 1443--------------------------------------------------
Re: The uniqueness of the Book of Enoch
By: bradley Date: April 24, 2015, 10:29 pm
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Here is chapter two, a short chapter.
Chap 2
1 Observe ye everything that takes place in the heaven, how they
do not change their orbits, and the luminaries which are in the
heaven, how they all rise and set in order each in its season,
and transgress not against their appointed order. 2 Behold ye
the earth, and give heed to the things which take place upon it
from first to last, how steadfast they are, how none of the
things upon earth change, but all the works of God appear to
you. 3 Behold the summer and the winter, how the whole earth is
filled with water, and clouds and dew and rain lie upon it.
#Post#: 1449--------------------------------------------------
Re: The uniqueness of the Book of Enoch
By: Piper Date: April 24, 2015, 11:14 pm
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[font=trebuchet ms]Pretty. I like that. Speakin' my language.
:)[/font]
#Post#: 1457--------------------------------------------------
Re: The uniqueness of the Book of Enoch
By: bradley Date: April 25, 2015, 8:38 am
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Yes, all safe stuff, basically saying God made things that are
dependable to do what is right, and that we are able to do the
same if we follow His lead. Here is chap 3.
3
1Observe and see how in the winter all the trees seem as though
they had withered and shed all their leaves, except fourteen
trees, which do not lose their foliage but retain the old
foliage from two to three years till the new comes.
I remember when I first read this, I was thinking "just
fourteen??", but then realized it meant fourteen species of
trees.
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