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#Post#: 1145--------------------------------------------------
Re: The uniqueness of the Book of Enoch
By: Kerry Date: April 14, 2015, 4:50 pm
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[quote author=Mike link=topic=130.msg1139#msg1139
date=1429044158]
Brad, years of forum interaction have caused me shift gradually
(and ultimately 'dramatically') from what you might call
evangelical fundamentalism.
If it were not for the fact that I still firmly belief and trust
in God as a 'basic' I would be 'shamming' by continuing to post
in Christian forums.
As it is I would no longer 'last for long' in many Christian
Forums but remain here simply on the goodwill of those who know
that I haven't got where I am without honest and unprejudiced
soul searching (at least I think that's why I'm still
tolerated).
I've even started my own 'Private Group' in recognition of the
need to keep the worst of my 'heresy' out of harms way.
BTW I never said anything about the Book of Enoch being
'Heresy'.
I won't say any more.....except in my 'Private Group'
[/quote]My views about holy books are so hard to try to
explain, sometimes I wonder if it's worth the time or effort;
and in some instances, my views are not fully formed. I once
went through the Book of Acts, and the thread ran to 49 posts.
If I had both the time and inclination, I might go through the
book of Hebrews some day; but I'll admit the problems I see
there may be beyond me. I would dread trying it although
someday perhaps I will.
#Post#: 1209--------------------------------------------------
Re: The uniqueness of the Book of Enoch
By: Kerry Date: April 18, 2015, 11:36 am
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First let me post, without comment, the first chapter of the
Book of Enoch. There are different translations, and the one I
quote here is the one by Richard Laurence.
[hr]
Chapter 1
1. The word of the blessing of Enoch, how he blessed the elect
and the righteous, who were to exist in the time of trouble;
rejecting all the wicked and ungodly. Enoch, a righteous man,
who was with God, answered and spoke, while his eyes were open,
and while he saw a holy vision in the heavens. This the angels
showed me.
2. From them I heard all things, and understood what I saw; that
which will not take place in this generation, but in a
generation which is to succeed at a distant period, on account
of the elect.
3. Upon their account I spoke and conversed with him, who will
go forth from his habitation, the Holy and Mighty One, the God
of the world:
4. Who will hereafter tread upon Mount Sinai; appear with his
hosts; and be manifested in the strength of his power from
heaven.
5. All shall be afraid, and the Watchers be terrified.
6. Great fear and trembling shall seize them, even to the ends
of the earth. The lofty mountains shall be troubled, and the
exalted hills depressed, melting like a honeycomb in the flame.
The earth shall be immerged, and all things which are in it
perish; while judgment shall come upon all, even upon all the
righteous:
7. But to them shall he give peace: he shall preserve the elect,
and towards them exercise clemency.
8. Then shall all belong to God; be happy and blessed; and the
splendour of the Godhead shall illuminate them.
#Post#: 1210--------------------------------------------------
Re: The uniqueness of the Book of Enoch
By: Kerry Date: April 18, 2015, 11:43 am
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Peter writes in similar terms but does not appear to be quoting
Enoch directly:
Enoch 1:6 Great fear and trembling shall seize them, even to the
ends of the earth. The lofty mountains shall be troubled, and
the exalted hills depressed, melting like a honeycomb in the
flame. The earth shall be immerged, and all things which are in
it perish; while judgment shall come upon all, even upon all the
righteous:
I Peter 4:17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at
the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the
end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?
18 And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the
ungodly and the sinner appear?
#Post#: 1222--------------------------------------------------
Re: The uniqueness of the Book of Enoch
By: bradley Date: April 18, 2015, 11:22 pm
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Nancy, I apologize, I didnt notice your request for verses till
now. I use another version than Kerry does, but if he stops
after awhile or it seems significantly different in my version,
I will post more.
Kerry, you are welcome to post it if you wish. I will include
some of my notes to look at at the beginning to look for them
later as the verses are posted.
!. I dont want to pretend that I understand all things from the
book of Enoch firmly and without reservation, but I find as many
truths there "in my spirit", as I do reading much of scripture.
And I have found nothing truly against what scripture teaches
that I remember.
2. I know names are important in the spiritual realm, and there
are many names in Enoch that are not in accepted scripture and
some that are. There are names of the arch angels, the good
ones, and the names of the leaders of the rebellious angels, and
its spoken in several situations in Enoch that both groups have
angels under them, like for instance Micheal is a leader of many
angels, that do many things, but Micheal is their leader who
reports to God for both himself and those under him. Their
names begin being listed in chap 6 onwards, and I note that like
God, and Jesus, they have mulitple names that are similar but
slightly different.
3. In 13:8 it tells us that Enoch is a dreamer, just like me and
others here as well.
4. In 14:5 it tells us that certain angels are no longer allowed
in heaven.
5. In 15:8-12 it tells us the origins of the evil spirits on
earth.
6. In 19:1 it tells us that angels can change form (also in
17:1)
7. In 19:2 it tells of the creation of sirens and how they are
real and came about, and I am not positive that they are gone
from this world, or if so, if there are children of the sirens
who have some of the same powers, that still exist to vex
humanity.
8. In 20:1-8 it tells of Good angel watchers, in addition to the
bad angels who went beyond just watching, which was all they
were supposed to do (and help humanity if the need arised and
allowed by God).
I have a lot more notes, but I will add more after we get to
chapter 20.
#Post#: 1344--------------------------------------------------
Re: The uniqueness of the Book of Enoch
By: Piper Date: April 22, 2015, 12:40 pm
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[font=trebuchet ms]Thanks, Brad.
What Kerry posted, then, speaks of a time of judgment upon the
earth. The Lord, at this time, will manifest with strength and
power. The elect will be preserved, and their peace shall be
in the Lord. Those not obeying the gospel of God will not fair
so well.
It seems Enoch was "taken up" in spirit and given this vision.
Seems to be a vision about the end, yet to come. All things
shall perish, but God's own will afterward belong to God, happy
and blessed.
What does it mean that the earth will be "immerged"?
What does it mean the splendor of the Godhead shall "illuminate"
them? Does that mean the preserved righteous will be given
understanding? Could it mean they will shine with the same
energy as seen at the transfiguration?
Who are the "Watchers" that shall be terrified?[/font]
#Post#: 1353--------------------------------------------------
Re: The uniqueness of the Book of Enoch
By: Kerry Date: April 22, 2015, 9:55 pm
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[quote author=Piper link=topic=130.msg1344#msg1344
date=1429724409]
What does it mean that the earth will be "immerged"?[/quote]
The definition I found says it means to plunge or immerse. My
guess is this was a prophecy about the coming flood of Noah in
one way but it could also be about the day (in the future) when
the world will be plunged into spiritual fire and baptized by
fire as it was baptized in water in the days of Noah.
[quote]What does it mean the splendor of the Godhead shall
"illuminate" them? Does that mean the preserved righteous will
be given understanding? Could it mean they will shine with the
same energy as seen at the transfiguration?[/quote]I it means
they becomes sources of the Divine Light themselves. They
receive the Light from God and then emit it to others as a way
of glorifying God.
Daniel 12:3 And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness
of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as
the stars for ever and ever.
Matthew 13:43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in
the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him
hear.
Perhaps I should start a thread about covenants and darkness
and Light in order not to derail this one. Why did Joseph see
Jacob as the sun and Rachel as the moon? Was the Star of
David a physical star or Spiritual Star? Why was the light
going dim in the days of Eli when Samuel was a child? I think
there is a pattern in the covenants and their relationship with
darkness and Light.
Who are the Watchers? Brad can give you his views; but I think
they and their offspring are wicked entities -- the ones David
prayed to have consumed out of the earth. Some may still be
around. I think David's prayers removed many, and Jesus removed
many; but there could still be some around. They were supposed
to act as watchers, as Guardian Angels, I think. Instead some
of them chose to incarnate as humans. Some also produced
offspring with human women. I'm one of those people who view
the myths of the Greeks and Romans as having some truth when
they talk about "gods" having children with human women.
Psalm 104:35 Let the sinners be consumed out of the earth, and
let the wicked be no more. Bless thou the Lord, O my soul.
Praise ye the Lord.
I also believe they took over the tribe called the Amalekites
and corrupted them so utterly, it would be wrong to think they
were humans. I think that is why Israel was told to kill them
whenever they saw them and could kill them. They were such a
corrupt group of beings, even their livestock was corrupted.
Yes, just the way the animals had been contaminated before the
Flood. Saul was told to eradicate them all, along with all
their animals. I think they posed a threat to all mankind. Saul
didn't do it. He didn't even kill Agag; but Samuel hacked him
to pieces.
That sounds like genocide to us today; but today, I don't think
there is any race or tribe today that is so utterly contaminated
they aren't really humans but mere beasts that resemble humans.
There would be no excuse to do such things today; but I think
wiping them out then was a wonderful thing. I would like to
think I'd have the courage to hack someone like Agag to death if
God told me to do it; but I don't know if I would -- so I can't
judge Saul too harshly. The Jews say if you see someone and
know that God will require someone kill him, it's okay to pray
that you not be the one to execute God's judgment.
I think there are still some Watchers and their offspring around
though; and they continue to be the source of many of mankind's
woes. Exactly "what" they are is still something of a mystery
to me though. I may talk about them; but there's still
something about them that I can't understand. I'm not sure I
want to.
#Post#: 1355--------------------------------------------------
Re: The uniqueness of the Book of Enoch
By: bradley Date: April 22, 2015, 11:48 pm
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[size=12pt]
.
[quote author=Piper link=topic=130.msg1344#msg1344
date=1429724409]
Thanks, Brad.
What Kerry posted, then, speaks of a time of judgment upon the
earth. The Lord, at this time, will manifest with strength and
power. The elect will be preserved, and their peace shall be
in the Lord. Those not obeying the gospel of God will not fair
so well.[/quote]
Yep, that pretty much nails it. Here is the first chapter
from my translation from Robert H. Charles in 1912. It is the
only version that is accepted by the Ge'ez people in africa
which is the language all translations come from apart from the
Aramaic portions found in the dead sea scrolls dated about 200
BC.
1 The words of the blessing of Enoch, wherewith he blessed the
elect and righteous, who will be living in the day of
tribulation, when all the wicked and godless are to be removed.
2And he took up his parable and said- Enoch a righteous man,
whose eyes were opened by God, saw the vision of the Holy One in
the heavens, which the angels showed me, and from them I heard
everything, and from them I understood as I saw, but not for
this generation, but for a remote one which is for to come.
3Concerning the elect I said, and took up my parable concerning
them:
The Holy Great One will come forth from His dwelling,
4And the eternal God will tread upon the earth, even on Mount
Sinai,
And appear from His camp
And appear in the strength of His might from the heaven of
heavens.
5And all shall be smitten with fear,
And the Watchers shall quake,
And great fear and trembling shall seize them unto the ends of
the earth.
6And the high mountains shall be shaken,
And the high hills shall be made low,
And shall melt like wax before the flame.
7And the earth shall be wholly rent in sunder,
And all that is upon the earth shall perish,
And there shall be a judgement upon all men.
8But with the righteous He will make peace,
And will protect the elect,
And mercy shall be upon them.
And they shall all belong to God,
And they shall be prospered,
And they shall all be blessed.
And He will help them all,
And light shall appear unto them,
And He will make peace with them.
9And behold! He cometh with ten thousands of His holy ones
To execute judgement upon all,
And to destroy all the ungodly:
And to convict all flesh
Of all the works of their ungodliness which they have ungodly
committed,
And of all the hard things which ungodly sinners have spoken
against Him.
[quote]
It seems Enoch was "taken up" in spirit and given this vision.
Seems to be a vision about the end, yet to come. All things
shall perish, but God's own will afterward belong to God, happy
and blessed.
What does it mean that the earth will be "immerged"?[/quote]
Immerged in water at least, this writting happens before the
great flood and a lot of this book is concerning the flood, but
as Kerry says, and I agree, it speaks of multiple times, the
earth and its inhabitants spend a lot of time in cycles of doing
much the same thing, as Solomon says, nothing new under the sun,
and in the NT (revelations?), it says it shall be as in the days
of Noah, not much changes when it comes to the hearts and minds
of men. I think it will be fire this next time as well.
[quote]
What does it mean the splendor of the Godhead shall "illuminate"
them? Does that mean the preserved righteous will be given
understanding? Could it mean they will shine with the same
energy as seen at the transfiguration?
Who are the "Watchers" that shall be terrified?
[/quote]
Many instances of heavenly visitation with humans have a
humanoid male figure that seemed brighter than normal. In
Enoch, there is passage later on where Noah's father is
frightened when he sees his "newborn" son with a bright
countenance, white hair and all. He is afraid that watcher
blood may be prevalent in his son, but he is assured thats not
the case, its just that Noah has been especially blessed from
birth. God's glory can be seen in his servants, (remember
Moses coming down from the mountain) but it may have a duel
meaning as well, that those blessed with the energy of the
transfiguration have become wiser from their time close to God.
Watchers are simply those who were to ONLY watch us humans. We
were a special project that God started when there were myriads
of angels (probably billions or trillions or perhaps even as
many as there is stars), and they were not to interfere with us,
just watch (maybe from space, maybe being amound us, but
invisible to us), but the book of Enoch states that a group of
200 watchers left the heavens and came to earth, and they were
rebellious when they interacted with us against God's will, but
just like us, they had free will. But just like the war in
heaven, I dont believe all watcher angels rebelled, and I think
most didnt, but even 200 powerful angels can do LOTS of damage
to us humans.
#Post#: 1373--------------------------------------------------
Re: The uniqueness of the Book of Enoch
By: Piper Date: April 23, 2015, 2:06 pm
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[quote]Kerry: The definition I found says it means to plunge or
immerse. My guess is this was a prophecy about the coming flood
of Noah in one way but it could also be about the day (in the
future) when the world will be plunged into spiritual fire and
baptized by fire as it was baptized in water in the days of
Noah. [/quote]
[font=trebuchet ms]
If the flood were literal, wouldn't the cleansing of the earth
by fire be literal, as well? As a very small child I saw a
vision of many fires consuming the earth and cried inconsolably.
My parents were at a loss. My entire life I've wondered what
it meant.
Can you explain what you mean by the world being plunged into
"spiritual" fire and baptized by it?[/font]
#Post#: 1374--------------------------------------------------
Re: The uniqueness of the Book of Enoch
By: Piper Date: April 23, 2015, 2:43 pm
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[font=trebuchet ms]Is it conceivable that some bloodlines in
people might yet contain blood from the "Watchers" in varying
amounts (angelic blood), possibly accounting, in part, for those
who seem to have perception and/or powers appearing to be what
we might call "supernatural"? Could angel blood mixing with
human produce such a manifestation? Could or can spiritual
power be passed through blood? It might explain a few things.
And, of course, within free will is the question of "whom shall
we serve?"
Makes me think of the Eucharist. If the wine becomes the
literal blood of Christ, and spiritual power is passed through
blood, then we would, conceivably be strengthened in that way--
a passing on of divine light, including eternal life. Thus
Jesus says, "Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has
eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day."
That is pretty awesome. Explains many things about blood and
its use in Scripture, and . . . OMG, just how it is we are saved
by the blood of the lamb!
If one has traces of angelic blood, and then drinks of the cup
of our Lord's blood, I see a world of possibility opening. My
mind goes strange places. This is the stuff novels are born of.
Are there hints of truth, even in fiction? What of divinity is
passed through blood? I think perhaps I'm touching on something
important here, but can't quite wrap my mind around it. Must
think and read . . .
Thoughts, please?[/font]
#Post#: 1382--------------------------------------------------
Re: The uniqueness of the Book of Enoch
By: Kerry Date: April 23, 2015, 5:29 pm
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[quote author=Piper link=topic=130.msg1373#msg1373
date=1429815969]
If the flood were literal, wouldn't the cleansing of the earth
by fire be literal, as well?[/quote]
There is not enough water in the earth's atmosphere for the
Flood of Noah to have literal; if you add all the water trapped
now in ice, that too wouldn't be enough literal water to cover
all the earth.
There was a physical flood, I think, but it covered "all the
earth" known to the people in the Mideast. Other sections of
the earth also had physical flooding; but the complete flooding
was spiritual when the vileness of the astral plane brought into
existence by man's evil imagination threatened all life.
[quote]As a very small child I saw a vision of many fires
consuming the earth and cried inconsolably. My parents were at
a loss. My entire life I've wondered what it meant.
Can you explain what you mean by the world being plunged into
"spiritual" fire and baptized by it?[/quote]
I was grown up when I saw something like that but what I saw
seemed beautiful. My vision didn't last long. What I saw was
pockets of blackness being burned away as flames engulfed the
whole earth. It looked a little like a dying ember -- but a
dying ember goes from being light to being black -- this was the
opposite, I knew the blackness was being being burned away and
would become all light although I didn't see that.
That will happen when the Light reaches the "cross" at the
"bottom of the earth" -- shown by the Southern Cross in the sky.
The flames will rise from that cross and rise like the
petals of a lily up and around the physical earth until a "crown
of life" is formed around the northern part -- shown in the sky
as the circular serpent which goes around the north pole. The
fallen serpent is restored to his place, no longer eating dirt.
The whole earth will be changed when that serpent is raised on
the pole. And the new earth will become like a new star or sun
in the spiritual sky.
Malachi 4:2 But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of
righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go
forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.
The calves refer to the cherub of the earth, to the red heifer
which was burned and reduced to dust. The ashes purified all
things. The old earth is reduced to ashes, yes, but is reborn.
The individual man is also baptized in fire of the resurrection,
and could be compared to an Easter lily with its white robes
and crown of gold at the top. "Consider the lilies of the
field" can be read more than one way.
I have been told there is a place where Mary tends what appears
to be spiritual lilies. Each lily in her garden corresponds to
the growing child of God. I can almost see it at times in my
mind's eye but I have never seen it clearly. This purity of
vision is the opposite of the evil eye which imagines only
iniquity. These lilies exist by the Will of God in Heaven (the
Third Heaven of Fire); and we pray, "Thy Will be done on earth
as it is in Heaven." Evil doesn't stand a chance of winning,
not really, since evil has been cast out of the Third Heaven --
completely and utterly by the Lion of Judah/the Lamb of God.
(The lion being the cherub of fire.)
The baptism by water of the entire earth in Noah's day involved
the cherubs of upper water (Man, Adam) and lower water (Eagle
with serpent in its talons -- shown by the raven in Genesis and
the Dove). The waters came from ow places -- darkened man,
and also from spiritual forces of the corrupted animals). The
rebaptism of Israel was also in the "sea" and the "cloud." And
God bare them on the wings of an eagle. With Jesus, it is said
the Dove was seen -- but we also see him being like an eagle
there playing with the serpent when he was driven into the
wilderness to be tempted by the Devil.
That baptism by water in Noah's day also corresponds to day two
in Genesis 1. A thousand years is as a day. We as individuals
are on our own tracks; but the earth as a whole has its own
track which follows a similar pattern of progress. Each step
forward is cornering the forces of evil a bit more.
For me, the importance of Enoch lies in his being a servant of
God willing to agree with the forces of Heaven -- not only down
to the physical plane where there was a physical flood, yes, but
also to the two heavens of upper and lower water. Dominion
over the earth was man's -- and Enoch was the man God had to
exercise lawful dominion by agreeing with God's purposes. Then
Noah and Shem took over -- and Shem lived until Abraham took
over.
For me, it also explains why Messiah did not come immediately.
The earth had to be softened up and made ready so people were
willing to accept him when he came.
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