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#Post#: 1108--------------------------------------------------
The uniqueness of the Book of Enoch
By: bradley Date: April 13, 2015, 11:00 pm
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One of my favorite topics, the Book of Enoch. Its taken rather
lightly by most in the christian and jewish communities.
It is also grouped together with a large collection of "lost"
slightly heretical publications found in eqypt in an ancient
library unearthed many years ago. The book was found amidst
these tomes and so was considered heretical if for no other
reason, than the other tomes found with them. The biggest
mark against them by many in christiandom is it showing some
angels as bad and causing much evil on earth.
My point in this child board is to attempt to encourage others
to read it and through the use of the Holy Spirit, see if it
disagrees with accepted scripture in any way. This book,
unlike the other books found in that group was that it was also
discovered in the lost sea scrolls in Isreal to include sacred
accepted scripture (and the book of giants) left by the
Esseanses dated around 200 years BC, before Christ. Unlike the
other find in egypt, it had nothing to do with christianity,
trying to influence the early church to believe certain ways
regardless of the truth. If you have any questions, I would
be glad to answer them. I am telling this from memory, but
have my notes if any of you have questions or clarifications
needed. I shared most of the book with Kerry previously, and
after time to think on it since that time, I would be interested
your thoughts as well as to its authenticity.
#Post#: 1109--------------------------------------------------
Re: The uniqueness of the Book of Enoch
By: A nonny mouse Date: April 14, 2015, 1:24 am
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Hi Brad, in my 'book' (please excuse the pun) all writings by
'men' constitute the attempts by man to create God in their own
image (imaginations) and have no more "authenticity" than that
.....(you did ask for opinions re authenticity and since you
intimate the possibility of heresy, hopefully you will accept my
little bit of heresy).
Mankind has this propensity to accord great mystery and
significance to anything suddenly unearthed after centuries of
'burial'.
Joseph Smith and the LDS 'trade' on such propensity.
#Post#: 1122--------------------------------------------------
Re: The uniqueness of the Book of Enoch
By: Heartsong Date: April 14, 2015, 6:00 am
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I'm not sure this belongs on a child board....I've read the Book
of Enoch. It's a very deep, powerful book. I can't say with
certainty that it is authentic. I think there are references to
it in the scriptures such as:
Gen. 6:1-7 And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on
the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them, That
the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair;
and they took them wives of all which they chose. And the LORD
said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he
also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty
years. There were giants in the earth in those days; and also
after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of
men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men
which were of old, men of renown. And GOD saw that the
wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every
imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil
continually. And it repented the LORD that he had made man on
the earth, and it grieved him at his heart. And the LORD said, I
will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth;
both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of
the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.
Compare Enoch 6:1-3 1 And it came to pass when the children of
men had
multiplied that in those days were born unto
2 them beautiful and comely daughters. And the angels, the
children of the heaven, saw and lusted after them, and said
to one another: 'Come, let us choose us wives from among the
children of men
3 and beget us children.'
2 Peter 2:4-5 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but
cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of
darkness, to be reserved unto judgment; And spared not the old
world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of
righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the
ungodly;
Jude 1:6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but
left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting
chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.
There are some parts of the Book of Enoch that I find hard to
believe and yet other parts that aren't hard for me to believe.
The Book of Jubilees also mentions the reason for the flood.
According to wikipedia, "The book of Jubilees was evidently held
in high regard, and sometimes quoted at length, by some early
church fathers."
Jubilees 5:1 And it came to pass when the children of men began
to multiply on the face of the earth and daughters were born
unto them, that the angels of God saw them on a certain year of
this jubilee, that they were beautiful to look upon; and they
took themselves wives of all whom they
2 chose, and they bare unto them sons and they were giants. And
lawlessness increased on the earth and all flesh corrupted its
way, alike men and cattle and beasts and birds and everything
that walks on the earth -all of them corrupted their ways and
their orders, and they began to devour each other, and
lawlessness increased on the earth and every imagination of the
thoughts of all men
3 (was) thus evil continually. And God looked upon the earth,
and behold it was corrupt, and all flesh had corrupted its
orders, and all that were upon the earth had wrought all manner
of evil
4 before His eyes. And He said that He would destroy man and all
flesh upon the face of the earth
5,6 which He had created.
#Post#: 1124--------------------------------------------------
Re: The uniqueness of the Book of Enoch
By: Kerry Date: April 14, 2015, 6:09 am
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[quote author=Heartsong link=topic=130.msg1122#msg1122
date=1429009223]
I'm not sure this belongs on a child board....I've read the Book
of Enoch. It's a very deep, powerful book. I can't say with
certainty that it is authentic. I think there are references to
it in the scriptures such as:
Gen. 6:1-7 And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on
the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them, That
the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair;
and they took them wives of all which they chose. And the LORD
said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he
also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty
years. There were giants in the earth in those days; and also
after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of
men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men
which were of old, men of renown. And GOD saw that the
wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every
imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil
continually. And it repented the LORD that he had made man on
the earth, and it grieved him at his heart. And the LORD said, I
will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth;
both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of
the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.
2 Peter 2:4-5 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but
cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of
darkness, to be reserved unto judgment; And spared not the old
world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of
righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the
ungodly;
Jude 1:6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but
left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting
chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great
day.[/quote]Yes, I think you're right to point that out. My
copy of the Book of Enoch has a list of places in the New
Testament that appear to be quoting the Book of Enoch.
[quote]There are some parts of the Book of Enoch that I find
hard to believe and yet other parts that aren't hard for me to
believe. [/quote]I have more reservations about the last
sections. I wonder if someone added to a book that had already
been written?
#Post#: 1125--------------------------------------------------
Re: The uniqueness of the Book of Enoch
By: bradley Date: April 14, 2015, 10:09 am
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"Posted by: Mike
« on: Today at 02:24:18 am » Insert Quote
Hi Brad, in my 'book' (please excuse the pun) all writings by
'men' constitute the attempts by man to create God in their own
image (imaginations) and have no more "authenticity" than that
.....(you did ask for opinions re authenticity and since you
intimate the possibility of heresy, hopefully you will accept my
little bit of heresy).
Mankind has this propensity to accord great mystery and
significance to anything suddenly unearthed after centuries of
'burial'.
Joseph Smith and the LDS 'trade' on such propensity."
Mike, it seems to me, that you like to find fault a lot.
Especially with me. Your opinions are noted, have you ever
read the book, or do you just assume its heresy because it
pleases you to do so?
#Post#: 1126--------------------------------------------------
Re: The uniqueness of the Book of Enoch
By: bradley Date: April 14, 2015, 10:39 am
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Heartsong link=topic=130.msg1122#msg1122
date=1429009223]
I'm not sure this belongs on a child board....I've read the Book
of Enoch. It's a very deep, powerful book. I can't say with
certainty that it is authentic. I think there are references to
it in the scriptures such as:
Gen. 6:1-7 And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on
the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them, That
the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair;
and they took them wives of all which they chose. And the LORD
said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he
also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty
years. There were giants in the earth in those days; and also
after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of
men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men
which were of old, men of renown. And GOD saw that the
wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every
imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil
continually. And it repented the LORD that he had made man on
the earth, and it grieved him at his heart. And the LORD said, I
will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth;
both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of
the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.
Compare Enoch 6:1-3 1 And it came to pass when the children of
men had
multiplied that in those days were born unto
2 them beautiful and comely daughters. And the angels, the
children of the heaven, saw and lusted after them, and said
to one another: 'Come, let us choose us wives from among the
children of men
3 and beget us children.'
2 Peter 2:4-5 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but
cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of
darkness, to be reserved unto judgment; And spared not the old
world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of
righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the
ungodly;
Jude 1:6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but
left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting
chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.
There are some parts of the Book of Enoch that I find hard to
believe and yet other parts that aren't hard for me to believe.
The Book of Jubilees also mentions the reason for the flood.
According to wikipedia, "The book of Jubilees was evidently held
in high regard, and sometimes quoted at length, by some early
church fathers."
Jubilees 5:1 And it came to pass when the children of men began
to multiply on the face of the earth and daughters were born
unto them, that the angels of God saw them on a certain year of
this jubilee, that they were beautiful to look upon; and they
took themselves wives of all whom they
2 chose, and they bare unto them sons and they were giants. And
lawlessness increased on the earth and all flesh corrupted its
way, alike men and cattle and beasts and birds and everything
that walks on the earth -all of them corrupted their ways and
their orders, and they began to devour each other, and
lawlessness increased on the earth and every imagination of the
thoughts of all men
3 (was) thus evil continually. And God looked upon the earth,
and behold it was corrupt, and all flesh had corrupted its
orders, and all that were upon the earth had wrought all manner
of evil
4 before His eyes. And He said that He would destroy man and all
flesh upon the face of the earth
5,6 which He had created.
[/quote]
I assume the child board basically means sub-board. In the
book of Jude 1:14-15, it speaks of Enoch as "the seventh from
Adam" and "the Lord coming with 10,000 of His saints to execute
judgement", the same terminology found in Enoch 1:9. The 10,000
portion is also found in Deut 33:2. Many but not all early
church leaders accepted it as inspired, but when the final tally
of inspired books were adopted in the third century, it was
decided not to be included. With the pre-Christ passages in
Enoch, refering to Him as the Son of Man, I can only assume it
was Enoch 90:17 that angered them to not include it. It
references the last "twelve" sheppards of the holy elect, that
they destroyed much more than their predecessors (the 70 of the
sanhedrin), before the Lord of the sheep. Now I dont think
this refers to the 12 apostles or a specific 70 at one time and
place, but the offices of said titles and how they, with the
accumulation of power over time, became corrupt and were bad
sheppards overall.
And yes, I just dont understand why people dont like angels
being spoken badly about, when its clear from scripture as you
posted that its not always the case. I believe they have free
choice just like us, but are much more powerful than us in our
earthly bodies. But I am encouraged that only a third of them
rebelled in the war in heaven.
#Post#: 1127--------------------------------------------------
Re: The uniqueness of the Book of Enoch
By: bradley Date: April 14, 2015, 10:45 am
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Kerry link=topic=130.msg1124#msg1124
date=1429009762]
Yes, I think you're right to point that out. My copy of the
Book of Enoch has a list of places in the New Testament that
appear to be quoting the Book of Enoch.I have more reservations
about the last sections. I wonder if someone added to a book
that had already been written?
[/quote]
I remember you speaking along this line before, but cant
remember what specifically you were refering to. Any chance
you could repost the parts in question?
#Post#: 1128--------------------------------------------------
Re: The uniqueness of the Book of Enoch
By: Kerry Date: April 14, 2015, 12:23 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=bradley link=topic=130.msg1127#msg1127
date=1429026324]
I remember you speaking along this line before, but cant
remember what specifically you were refering to. Any chance
you could repost the parts in question?
[/quote]My memory is a little vague on this. I can remember
wanting to post the passages that are so similar; but I don't
recall actually getting around to it. I may have started it
and done a few bits but failed to pursue it. [quote
author=bradley link=topic=130.msg1125#msg1125 date=1429024175]
Mike, it seems to me, that you like to find fault a lot.
Especially with me. Your opinions are noted, have you ever
read the book, or do you just assume its heresy because it
pleases you to do so?[/quote]
Sometimes he reminds me of what the Duchess says in Alice in
Wonderland -- "he only does it to annoy because he knows it
teases."
His views about holy books (that includes the Bible) are
unusual, perhaps more unusual than mine.
#Post#: 1137--------------------------------------------------
Re: The uniqueness of the Book of Enoch
By: Piper Date: April 14, 2015, 3:29 pm
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[font=trebuchet ms]Brad,
Are you going to include the text of 'Enoch' on this board, as
well? I'm sure some of us would be interested in reading the
text, and maybe you could include some of your notes, as well?
I think your notes would be as valuable as the text, since
you've studied the book in depth.
[/font]
#Post#: 1139--------------------------------------------------
Re: The uniqueness of the Book of Enoch
By: A nonny mouse Date: April 14, 2015, 3:42 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=bradley link=topic=130.msg1125#msg1125
date=1429024175]
"Posted by: Mike
« on: Today at 02:24:18 am » Insert Quote
Hi Brad, in my 'book' (please excuse the pun) all writings by
'men' constitute the attempts by man to create God in their own
image (imaginations) and have no more "authenticity" than that
.....(you did ask for opinions re authenticity and since you
intimate the possibility of heresy, hopefully you will accept my
little bit of heresy).
Mankind has this propensity to accord great mystery and
significance to anything suddenly unearthed after centuries of
'burial'.
Joseph Smith and the LDS 'trade' on such propensity."
Mike, it seems to me, that you like to find fault a lot.
Especially with me. Your opinions are noted, have you ever
read the book, or do you just assume its heresy because it
pleases you to do so?
[/quote]
Brad, years of forum interaction have caused me shift gradually
(and ultimately 'dramatically') from what you might call
evangelical fundamentalism.
If it were not for the fact that I still firmly belief and trust
in God as a 'basic' I would be 'shamming' by continuing to post
in Christian forums.
As it is I would no longer 'last for long' in many Christian
Forums but remain here simply on the goodwill of those who know
that I haven't got where I am without honest and unprejudiced
soul searching (at least I think that's why I'm still
tolerated).
I've even started my own 'Private Group' in recognition of the
need to keep the worst of my 'heresy' out of harms way.
BTW I never said anything about the Book of Enoch being
'Heresy'.
I won't say any more.....except in my 'Private Group'
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