DIR Return Create A Forum - Home
---------------------------------------------------------
Religious Convictions
HTML https://religiousconvictions.createaforum.com
---------------------------------------------------------
*****************************************************
DIR Return to: Religious Discussions
*****************************************************
#Post#: 1019--------------------------------------------------
Time
By: Kerry Date: April 10, 2015, 10:31 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
So much of the Bible is ambiguous requiring us to make decisions
as we read. What do we make of this?
Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven<s> and the
earth.
Beginning of what if it does mean beginning? Rabbi Maimonides
seemed to think this didn't mean beginning. He said it meant by
means of the chief thing, or by the most important thing since
resh/rosh means the head thing or the most important thing. He
could be right. It could be a reference to Messiah/Christ, to
the maker of all things. Be that as it may, we are clearly
told that something in time commenced when God spoke. Does
this mean before God spoke, there was no time?
1:3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the
light from the darkness.
5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called
Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.
To whom or what did God speak? It couldn't be people who
weren't there yet. So we see that the "Word" of God has
something to do with time, and further it it can make things
happen.
It is worth noting that sounds are vibrations. Vibrations
involve time, of course; and a sound usually has one source
which moves outwards ever expanding in a spherical manner.
At first glance, we may also attribute vibrations and time to
light; but is that always true? It is true from our
perspective within time. We say it takes about 8 minutes for
light to reach the earth from the sun; and in our space-time
mindset, that's true. It is not true however for the photon.
Einstein's equations show that, and we have evidence the
time-dilation and contraction equation is correct. At the
"speed of light," time ceases to exist. There is no time
involved.
From the way the photon in an atom on the sun experiences it,
it disappears there and appears here on the earth.
Immediately, without taking any time; and really no motion
either since the distance is also reduced to zero.
The only explanation for this is that the photon is capable of
being in two places at the same time, or that the two locations
in space are experienced as being the same. The photon can
bilocate -- be in two places at the same time.
Even more astonishing from the human perspective is that the
atom on the sun and the atom on the earth seem to know about
each other before the photon "moves". The photon does not
leave the atom on the sun without knowing what atom it will join
on the earth. This sounds astonishing, but this principle is
true no matter great the distance is. It could take millions
of years from our perspective for "light to move" from one place
to another, but from its perspective no time was involved.
The universe does not follow "common sense" rules we usually
consider true. The question then is if a photon in an atom can
escape the limits of time and space, can we? The saints and
mystics who have talked about being outside time and space, or
of being in more than one place at a time seem to have been
right.
Jesus claimed to be in two places at the same time:
John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that
came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
Clearly, if he came down from Heaven yet still remained in
Heaven, he'd be in two places at the same time. Yet before the
Transfiguration, Crucifixion and Resurrection, we never see his
"physical" body appearing and disappearing. We do see that
later. He could appear inside locked rooms. Yes, I'd say it
has something to do with the Transfiguring of his physical body
into a different sort of body of Light. I am not necessarily
speaking now about physical light. Physical light is like
spiritual Light in some ways but also different.
#Post#: 1028--------------------------------------------------
Re: Time
By: Piper Date: April 11, 2015, 1:59 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[font=trebuchet ms]Amazing and perplexing facts and ideas.
I had to start by defining "photon", which follows: a particle
representing a quantum of light or other electromagnetic
radiation. A photon carries energy proportional to the radiation
frequency but has zero rest mass.
Made me think of the relationship between light and spirit, both
of which have no mass, only energy. Does that sound
right?[/font]
#Post#: 1029--------------------------------------------------
Re: Time
By: Piper Date: April 11, 2015, 2:17 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote]The question then is if a photon in an atom can escape
the limits of time and space, can we? [/quote]
[font=trebuchet ms]That is, of course, the most intriguing
question. Is this what occurs when spirit exits the physical
body, and could such stepping out of time occur even while in
the body? Can we access our 'body of light', leave the physical
body behind, and temporarily step out of time or beyond the
restraints of time and space? How does "transfiguring" occur,
and is it, I wonder, related in some way to
"transubstantiation"?[/font]
#Post#: 1034--------------------------------------------------
Re: Time
By: Kerry Date: April 11, 2015, 3:39 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Piper link=topic=121.msg1028#msg1028
date=1428778766]
[font=trebuchet ms]Amazing and perplexing facts and ideas.
I had to start by defining "photon", which follows: a particle
representing a quantum of light or other electromagnetic
radiation. A photon carries energy proportional to the radiation
frequency but has zero rest mass.
Made me think of the relationship between light and spirit, both
of which have no mass, only energy. Does that sound
right?[/font]
[/quote]Yes, no mass . . . unless you want it to have some. It
appears that it is possible for the spirit to control how the
Light in his spiritual body manifests. When Jesus walked on
water, that's a clue to me that he had already converted much of
his physical body mass into Light. Some saints have minor
problems with this before they learn how to keep enough of their
spiritual body inside time and space with the accompanying mass
so they're not levitating and upsetting others. I read of one
saint who was apt to levitate if praying. He took steps to
prevent it.
If all the body mass has been converted to Light, and if the
spirit has mastered how to project the body, of course there is
no problem. My estimate is that most Christians are converting
small portions of physical mass into Light daily -- or could be,
perhaps should be. The mortal is putting on immortality, the
corrupt is being changed into the pure and everlasting. Small
portions are enough, I think; but it is possible, I do believe,
that someone could change all the physical mass into Light.
Yes, of course, his or her body could then simply vanish from
the physical earth. Thus it is easily believable to me that
Mary could have been assumed into Heaven. From what I know of
Padre Pio, he could have done it too but chose not to.
Do not expect however for profane eyes to see such a thing.
Jesus permitted only three of his disciples to witness his
Transfiguration; and so far as I can see, he appeared only to
believers after the Resurrection. No one witnessed what
happened in the tomb. In general, the Divine Light is
concealed from the impure; and although everyone is changing
mass in their physical bodies into Light, this is concealed at
the present. I adopt the Jewish view on this that after the
Resurrection, this Divine Light will be visible to all.
All this sounds fantastic to people, but if we can observe
physical particles doing it, why would we assume our physical
bodies could never do it? [quote author=Piper
link=topic=121.msg1029#msg1029 date=1428779840]
[font=trebuchet ms]That is, of course, the most intriguing
question. Is this what occurs when spirit exits the physical
body, and could such stepping out of time occur even while in
the body? Can we access our 'body of light', leave the physical
body behind, and temporarily step out of time or beyond the
restraints of time and space? How does "transfiguring" occur,
and is it, I wonder, related in some way to
"transubstantiation"?[/font]
[/quote]If the spirit is still attached to the physical body and
craving the enslavement of being trapped in time and space, the
exit will not be total. His soul may wander off seeking
carnal things. He cannot have a proper spiritual body as long
as the soul is craving a carnal body. There appears to have
been other impediments too. Before Jesus mastered some
principle, it seems even the souls of some saints could be
trapped; but following the Crucifixion, we read they came out of
the earth.
I do not read that literally, that their physical bodies came
out. No, nor do I read the part of Matthew about the veil in
the Temple being rent literally. I think the Jews would have
known that happened if the physical veil in the earthly Temple
had been rent; and I think they would have spotted "dead people"
walking around if physical bodies came out of their graves.
Rather I think a problem with their souls was resolved.
I believe it is best, if at all possible, to escape the limits
of time and space, while the physical body is still around.
Leaving the body assures you that all is well without that
physical body. You learn you don't need. You learn things may
be better without it. When it does die, it's not a tragedy.
You're not apt to wander off seeking such a body with its
temptations.
Is this connected to Transubstantiation? I would say,
"Certainly." There is no doubt of it in my opinion. Note how
nothing changes in the appearance of the Wine and Bread if
viewed by the physical eye. It still looks like ordinary bread
and wine. The change is concealed from the gaze of the idly
curious. Yet they are changed.
The atoms which were changed outside the physical body are then
consumed and incorporated into the physical body. Thus the
Eucharist serves to change the physical body into the Divine
Light, bit by bit. There are times people may question
Catholic things; and perhaps there is room for criticism; but I
believe the Catholic Church has survived as long as it has
because it's preserved the Eucharist. The believer benefits.
Some atoms are changed without benefit of the Eucharist; but the
Eucharist is a powerful boost.
However the Eucharist can be a curse to those who partake
unworthily. The person who knows he's sinned and hasn't
repented would be wise to avoid it. Such a person is
knowingly clinging to an area of darkness in his spiritual body.
Yet he's taking in Divine Light which tries to drive it out.
This conflict is dangerous -- and can cause sickness or even
death. The person who has nothing on his conscience and
receives the Eucharist worthily benefits because as the old dark
areas are eliminated gently, they are replaced by the Light. The
Christ Spirit is free to make the person "whole."
I always wonder why people who do not believe that something is
truly changed during Communion, "How can you believe your
corruptible body will be changed later into an incorruptible
body if you can't believe the Power of God can change the atoms
of the bread and wine?"
As tempted as we may be to think the Blood and Body of Christ
were the physical blood and body on the physical cross, it
cannot be since he offered his Blood and Body before that. I
also wonder what good physical blood and flesh would do? Yes,
they're connected in some way -- and I believe Jesus can do for
us what he did for his own physical body and that the Eucharist
is one way that helps do it.
#Post#: 1036--------------------------------------------------
Re: Time
By: Kerry Date: April 11, 2015, 5:02 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
I should probably clarify one of my statements. I was not
saying someone must actively believe in transubstantiation in
order to be saved; but if someone believes it is impossible for
the bread and wine to be changed, if he denies that the Power of
God could do that, I think he is in some jeopardy. It is fine
to say, "I don't know." It is dangerous to say, "That is
impossible."
#Post#: 1038--------------------------------------------------
Re: Time
By: Piper Date: April 11, 2015, 9:07 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[font=trebuchet ms]Kerry,
I must admit that I laughed at the image you portrayed in the
first paragraph-- the part about accidently levitating and
"upsetting" others. I imagine if one walked in on someone in
private prayer suspended somewhere near the ceiling, it would
definitely cause a gasp and accelerated heart rate! lol
Thank you, truly. Your thread has helped increase my
understanding of what exactly is occuring during the
Eucharistic supper. The Catholic teaching is that Christ is not
sacrificed repeatedly at Mass, as some understand it, but that
the crucifixion occured in some respect outside of time. The
Eucharist, in part, is a re- representation of the sacrifice
that was once for all, always available to reconcile us to God.
In effect, during Mass, we step out of time and stand at the
foot of the cross. I think even that God has been preparing me
my whole life for a deeper understanding of the Eucharistic
celebration. I didn't want to rush into things without
understanding, especially as we are warned not to partake in an
unworthy manner. It's a complex subject with supernatural
implications which I imagine many Catholics, even, truly do not
understand. Indeed we probably can not understand it fully, and
believing by faith alone is not wrong; but how much better to
grasp a bit of the divine magic that occurs in the changing of
the bread and wine, and the relationship to our spiritual bodies
of light and how we can be changed in an instant. And, yes,
even my own limited experience has helped dispel the fear of
death, and I've been shown that our bodies are useful, but we
have another body, fully our own, yet free of the weight,
restrictions, and sometimes painful existence of this 'life'.
How wonderful if we can train ourselves thru prayer and deep
meditation to let go willingly, without fear. What a relief if
we were very old or very ill, to shake off the body, to rest
away from it, to know death is a release, a blessing, even, in
God's time. What grand incentive to become pure and to embrace
the light, Christ, within, to release the ties that bind us to
this world and to open at least a small window into the
spiritual realm from which we come and to which we return. Life
becomes only a small, but important blip in an unimaginable
overall spiritual adventure. How sad to live life without
spiritual vision, ignoring or rejecting all that Jesus wishes
for us to know.[/font]
#Post#: 1039--------------------------------------------------
Re: Time
By: Kerry Date: April 11, 2015, 11:25 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
It could be comical, and it could awkward; and it was enough
to get St. Joseph of Cupertino locked up for his levitating.
People at the time thought all levitation was demonic, and he
was reported to the Inquisition. From Wikipedia
HTML http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_of_Cupertino:
After this point, the occasions of ecstasy in Joseph's life
began to multiply. It was claimed that he began to levitate
while participating at the Mass or joining the community for the
Liturgy of the Hours, thereby gaining a widespread reputation of
holiness among the people of the region and beyond. He was
deemed disruptive by his religious superiors and Church
authorities, however, and eventually was confined to a small
cell, forbidden from joining in any public gathering of the
community.
As the phenomenon of flying or levitation was widely believed to
be connected with witchcraft, Joseph was denounced to the
Inquisition. At their command, he was transferred from one
Franciscan friary in the region to another for observation,
first to Assisi (1639–53), then briefly to Pietrarubbia and
finally Fossombrone, where he lived with and under the
supervision of the Capuchin friars (1653–57). He practiced a
severe asceticism throughout his life, usually eating solid food
only twice a week. He passed 35 years of his life following this
regimen.
I hadn't heard about that detail about how infrequently he ate;
but that too makes sense. Remember how Jesus said he had meat
to eat the disciples did not know about?
St. Teresa of Avila would levitate sometimes in state of
rapture; and it's said it frightened her but she couldn't do
anything about it. St. Catherine of Siena also is said to
have levitated; but I don't how she felt about it. My guess is
it embarrassed her.
I'm laughing about it now, but this wasn't funny when it
happened. I was meditating one night while lying on my bed; and
all of a sudden I felt my body starting to get lighter. I felt
as if I was going to float. I wondered if I'd hit the ceiling
and get stuck. I also wondered what would happen if it ever
happened outside. Could I float up and up and maybe float off
into space? It frightened me and brought me out of my
rapturous state. Plunk! My body was heavy again. I never
wanted that to happen again because I wasn't ready for it. It
made me worry about my silly physical body. It didn't happen
again. Maybe I am too carnal a person, too addicted to "normal
reality." ;D I don't know if it would disturb me now if I
levitated when alone; but it would certainly embarrass me if it
happened in public. All told, I'd rather not be able to do it
for fear of disturbing the peace by doing it in public.
I can also remember when I was about four wondering if I could
float down the stairs. I could. At least the memory of it is
there. That also never happened again.
You can see how confused Jesus' disciples got when he walked on
water; and people also were afraid of St. Joseph of Cupertino,
thinking it must be demonic.
My guess -- and it's only a guess -- is that other kinds of
levitation involve something else, like psychokinesis. It's not
reducing mass by converting the physical into the Spiritual but
rather using a force to move the mass upwards much the way a
plane flies not by becoming massless but by adding an upwards
force on the mass of the plane.
-------------------
Yes, I agree the Crucifixion occurred . . . outside of time.
#Post#: 1040--------------------------------------------------
Re: Time
By: Kerry Date: April 12, 2015, 6:59 am
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote] What a relief if we were very old or very ill, to shake
off the body, to rest away from it, to know death is a release,
a blessing, even, in God's time. What grand incentive to become
pure and to embrace the light, Christ, within, to release the
ties that bind us to this world and to open at least a small
window into the spiritual realm from which we come and to which
we return. Life becomes only a small, but important blip in an
unimaginable overall spiritual adventure. [/quote]I had a friend
who was a rabbinical student when I knew him. I've lost track
of him now; but he brought my attention to how "repent" and
"comfort" in Hebrew are the same word. This came up when we
were discussing Job.
Job 42:4 Hear, I beseech thee, and I will speak: I will demand
of thee, and declare thou unto me.
5 I have heard of thee by the hearing of the ear: but now mine
eye seeth thee.
6 Wherefore I abhor myself, and repent in dust and ashes.
My friend said this could read that Job took comfort in being
made of dust and ashes. Compare to what he said earlier.
Job 30:19 He hath cast me into the mire, and I am become like
dust and ashes.
Compare this speaking to God and expecting God might answer back
to what Abraham said.
Genesis 18:27 And Abraham answered and said, Behold now, I have
taken upon me to speak unto the Lord, which am but dust and
ashes:
Both are also placed in an intercessory role. Abraham asks for
mercy for the people of the ciities of the plain; and Job is
told to intercede for his friends. And of course, it goes back
to, "Dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return."
If you think about it, being trapped in physical bodies for
eternity with all their problems and requirements would be very
tedious, I'd think. Most of our time is spent serving the
body. We work to get money to have housing to protect our
bodies from the elements, to buy food to keep it alive, to buy
transportation to move them around here and there. The amount
of time and effort put into trying to keep our physical bodies
alive is staggering; and in the end, we all die anyway. Even
if those bodies didn't die in the end, I can imagine I'd become
very bored and long for death. Perhaps reading Gulliver's
Travels was a mistake! Swift describes people who are born
immortal but without eternal youth. Their lot is very
miserable.
When I had an organ, I used to play Bach's piece, "Come, Sweet
Death." I was shocked by the title when I first saw it.
HTML https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6mZhooMOzWg
Bach also wrote a version to be sung.
HTML https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jK_hTwuLLiM
#Post#: 1057--------------------------------------------------
Re: Time
By: Piper Date: April 12, 2015, 2:02 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote]If you think about it, being trapped in physical bodies
for eternity with all their problems and requirements would be
very tedious, I'd think. Most of our time is spent serving the
body. We work to get money to have housing to protect our
bodies from the elements, to buy food to keep it alive, to buy
transportation to move them around here and there. The amount
of time and effort put into trying to keep our physical bodies
alive is staggering; and in the end, we all die anyway.
[/quote]
[font=trebuchet ms]You know, you're right! What a wry smile
when I read that last sentence. Spirit is everything when you
think of it. Without it, all is hopeless in the end. Life
definitely has its pleasures, but all is passing. I often feel
great sympathy for all of earth. Seems a strange place with
every living thing, no exceptions, born to thrive a short while,
but all facing the same inevitability. Almost an illusion of
sorts; we sail through and sail on. One second in eternity.
To love and comfort is all that matters.[/font]
#Post#: 1091--------------------------------------------------
Re: Time
By: Kerry Date: April 13, 2015, 2:52 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
I believe something is happening, something very worthwhile, in
the middle of all the suffering. Let me come back to the pearl
again. It is made by an oyster, an unclean animal, when that
oyster gets a particle of dirt in it. How annoying that dirt
is. But the oyster responds by making a pearl. That pearl is
made out of the sea and all the nasty things the oyster eats.
The oyster dies, but the pearl is forever.
I'd say when everything of any value has been taken out of the
unpleasant spiritual sea, that sea no longer serves its purpose.
Thus John says the sea will be no more. There will then be a
"new earth."
Every saint who makes his own pearl is helping to clean up the
sea.
*****************************************************