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#Post#: 2506--------------------------------------------------
Re: Is the World 'Looking Away'?
By: Amadeus Date: July 11, 2015, 8:17 am
---------------------------------------------------------
[font=courier]Yes, the world is looking away, both of the worlds
I see:
"And there was much murmuring among the people concerning him:
for some said, He is a good man: others said, Nay; but he
deceiveth the people." John 7:12
Is it different now even among Christians as it was then when
Jesus walked in the land of his flesh and on the land known as
Israel? Instead of unity of and in the Spirit, is there not
confusion of the spirits of men? Is not confusion similar to if
not equal to division?
"Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you,
Nay; but rather division:
For from henceforth there shall be five in one house divided,
three against two, and two against three.
The father shall be divided against the son, and the son against
the father; the mother against the daughter, and the daughter
against the mother; the mother in law against her daughter in
law, and the daughter in law against her mother in law." Luke
12:51-53
What was it God did at Babel?
"Go to, let us go down, and there confound their language, that
they may not understand one another's speech.
So the LORD scattered them abroad from thence upon the face of
all the earth: and they left off to build the city." Gen 11:7-8
He divided them hopefully perhaps ... as Kerry put it... to
conquer them. But what does He want to win from them? Does He
also want to destroy something?[/font]
#Post#: 2508--------------------------------------------------
Re: Is the World 'Looking Away'?
By: Piper Date: July 11, 2015, 10:27 am
---------------------------------------------------------
[font=trebuchet ms]^The more I learn of the Catholic faith, the
more I fall in love. There is an absolute wealth of wisdom and
tradition in worship preceding us. There is so much to be
learned from the many saints over all the centuries; they still
speak of the beauty that is Christ our Lord. There is guidance
in prayer, and solid guidance in life and in the faith. Is the
Church perfect? Of course not, but I find very little of the
confusion that once plagued me; the Catholic Church is very
clear in their beliefs. And the acknowledgement of the Mother
of our Lord, of our Mother, is something I would never turn away
from. Protestant faith deprived me of her blessings.
Jesus prayed that His disciples have unity. I find that unity
in Catholic teaching, in the Catholic faith. Believing it is
the Church Jesus founded, I need not sort through countless
doctrines and beliefs of men stemming from countless personal
interpretatations of Holy Scripture; instead I may rest in the
guidance of the apostolic Church.
The division Jesus spoke of was never meant to be among His own
followers. A house divided can not stand. A house divided
lacks credibility. Confusion is a wandering in the wilderness
with no shepherd, or perhaps with too, too many self-proclaimed
shepherds leading the faithful in a million conflicting
directions. Division is what occurs when people want to be
their own authority.
What needs to be destroyed is demanding our own way, our own
will. We need the assurance that even when it all falls apart
around us, still we fervently pray, "Thy will be done," because
His will, His way, is what safely brings us home. Studying the
Our Father closely is a real eye opener. Jesus led us, in that
prayer, to look first god-ward, and then us-ward: thy name, thy
kingdom, thy will followed by give us, forgive us, lead us,
deliver us.
It is a blessing to me to discover I may faithfully follow the
path our Lord set forth, rather than accept confusion and
division within what should be a united Christian faith.
This has been my experience. This is my only real solace in a
mad world.
Pope Francis, in the solemn address spoken of in the OP, was
voicing a plea for protection of his own flock, for persecuted
Christians who are our brothers and sisters in Christ,
regardless of this thing we have come to label "denomination."
He has also voiced a plea for protection of our world in the
face of threats such as global warming. This man has the
courage to speak, even when he knows his message may not be
popular. I admire such courage. It reflects the faith and
courage of our Lord.
[/font]
#Post#: 2509--------------------------------------------------
Re: Is the World 'Looking Away'?
By: Piper Date: July 11, 2015, 1:42 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[font=trebuchet ms]There is strength in unity. Jesus knew that.
Yes, we are divided against those who deny or defy Him, but He
prayed we, His disciples, be ONE. Christians need to unify, to
stand firm in the way of Christ.
The violations of human rights I read about are violations
against common decency and violations against God, who loves
justice and mercy. If Christians are united, not necessarily in
doctrine, but absolutely in Spirit, in compassion, and in the
promotion of charity as well as mercy, we WILL move mountains.
The world will know we are His, and He will be our strength. We
could be an example of the faith that heals, forgives, guides,
and cares beyond our own doors, beyond our own borders, beyond
even our own faith. It is time to come to our senses, to shed
tears and beat our breasts in sorrow. We could be His hands, His
feet. We could show them a Love that gave all.
If we love our God enough, if we trust and obey despite all
odds, we become lampposts that shine on the hillside, and people
will see.
I actually DO think we have it in us, despite denominational
divisions, because what is IN US is Christ. We CAN be one as
Jesus pleaded.
We may soon need solidarity as never before. The enemy rages
when his time is short. The unspeakable is already in our
midst, and we may choose to "look away" until suddenly we find
the fire burns in our own homeland. [/font]
#Post#: 2510--------------------------------------------------
Re: Is the World 'Looking Away'?
By: Amadeus Date: July 11, 2015, 2:26 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Piper link=topic=114.msg2508#msg2508
date=1436628477]
The more I learn of the Catholic faith, the more I fall in love.
There is an absolute wealth of wisdom and tradition in worship
preceding us. There is so much to be learned from the many
saints over all the centuries; they still speak of the beauty
that is Christ our Lord. There is guidance in prayer, and solid
guidance in life and in the faith. Is the Church perfect? Of
course not, but I find very little of the confusion that once
plagued me; the Catholic Church is very clear in their beliefs.
And the acknowledgement of the Mother of our Lord, of our
Mother, is something I would never turn away from. Protestant
faith deprived me of her blessings.[/quote]
[font=courier]You're right that the Catholic has much than many
Protestants lack. The difficulty always is in seeking out and
finding the proper guidance to go the way the Lord wants us to
go. There are some that are better as organizations go and some
perhaps better as information goes. The problem with
organizations is what we see with these United States of ours.
In their beginning they seemingly had a very good systems of
checks and balances, and all of that. Still it was man's
organization. The same thing occurs or can occur wherever we go.
The difference must be in our connection [or the lack thereof]
with God Himself.
The problem with those with seemingly better information is
whether or not the information we are getting is from God or
not.
[/font]
[quote]Jesus prayed that His disciples have unity. I find that
unity in Catholic teaching, in the Catholic faith. Believing it
is the Church Jesus founded, I need not sort through countless
doctrines and beliefs of men stemming from countless personal
interpretatations of Holy Scripture; instead I may rest in the
guidance of the apostolic Church.[/quote]
[font=courier]Unity exists in various places in various degrees.
The workers who were building the tower of Babel were unified,
but it was obviously their purpose was wrong.
With organized churches... I must include the Catholics here...
their purpose for me is also wrong. I will grant that a person
can rest in the guidance of the RCC, but again this doesn't say
it is ultimately right for each of us. I was strong in the RCC
all during my early years of development. My best counselors and
friends were in it until I graduated from high school. My focus
was seriously on becoming a Catholic priest, myself. I have not
forgotten all of those things, but God has shown me something
else. For me anyway, it is certainly better.
[/font]
[quote]The division Jesus spoke of was never meant to be among
His own followers. A house divided can not stand. A house
divided lacks credibility. Confusion is a wandering in the
wilderness with no shepherd, or perhaps with too, too many
self-proclaimed shepherds leading the faithful in a million
conflicting directions. Division is what occurs when people
want to be their own authority.[/quote]
[font=courier]But, while what you say is so, the only always
True leader is Jesus. He is the only Head of his Body. People
within the Catholic Church as well as outside of it have missed
this too often. Getting into the Catholic Church for some may
not be wrong, but it is no guarantee of getting it right with
God either. The only guarantee for that is in Jesus. He is not
restricted to members of one particular group or organization or
church or another as men see them.[/font]
[quote]What needs to be destroyed is demanding our own way, our
own will. We need the assurance that even when it all falls
apart around us, still we fervently pray, "Thy will be done,"
because His will, His way, is what safely brings us home.
Studying the Our Father closely is a real eye opener. Jesus led
us, in that prayer, to look first god-ward, and then us-ward:
thy name, thy kingdom, thy will followed by give us, forgive us,
lead us, deliver us.[/quote]
[font=courier]I see nothing wrong with your words, but don't add
things that are not there. What is it that we are to "see" and
what is it that we are to "hear"? [/font]
[quote]It is a blessing to me to discover I may faithfully
follow the path our Lord set forth, rather than accept confusion
and division within what should be a united Christian
faith.[/quote]
[font=courier]As long as you are not saying that the path our
Lord set forth is only to found in the RCC, I'll not disagree.
There may be Catholics who are on the Lord's side, but there are
certainly others on the Lord's side as well. [/font]
[quote]This has been my experience. This is my only real solace
in a mad world.[/quote]
[font=courier]If your only real solace is in the RCC, is it not
because you have found Jesus there? Is Jesus not the answer to
anyone who really finds the right answer? [/font]
[quote]Pope Francis, in the solemn address spoken of in the OP,
was voicing a plea for protection of his own flock, for
persecuted Christians who are our brothers and sisters in
Christ, regardless of this thing we have come to label
"denomination." He has also voiced a plea for protection of our
world in the face of threats such as global warming. This man
has the courage to speak, even when he knows his message may not
be popular. I admire such courage. It reflects the faith and
courage of our Lord.
[/quote]
[font=courier]Courage to speak the truth, God's truth, if a
person has it and speaks it, does it not come also from God? I
would hope that I never again lean so heavily on one mortal man,
who is not the Christ. (Yes, I have done so.) The man, Francis,
may be many things good through God, but he is still also just a
man of corruptible flesh as each of us is. If he is to be your
leader in the Lord, so be it, but remember always the words
penned by Paul:
"Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ." I Cor 11:1
Paul added the underlined portion recognizing his own ability to
fail.[/font]
#Post#: 2511--------------------------------------------------
Re: Is the World 'Looking Away'?
By: Amadeus Date: July 11, 2015, 2:41 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Piper link=topic=114.msg2509#msg2509
date=1436640125]
The unspeakable is already in our midst, and we may choose to
"look away" until suddenly we find the fire burns in our own
homeland. [/quote]
[font=courier]The fire burns in our hearts, but how much of it
is a "strange fire" rather than the "fire of God?
As long as our hearts strive to remain a mixture of the two and
we steadily feed the "strange" as well that which is "of God",
our lukewarmness will eventually defeat us. What vision do we
have?[/font]
#Post#: 2512--------------------------------------------------
Re: Is the World 'Looking Away'?
By: Kerry Date: July 11, 2015, 3:04 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Piper link=topic=114.msg2508#msg2508
date=1436628477]
The division Jesus spoke of was never meant to be among His own
followers. A house divided can not stand. A house divided
lacks credibility. Confusion is a wandering in the wilderness
with no shepherd, or perhaps with too, too many self-proclaimed
shepherds leading the faithful in a million conflicting
directions. Division is what occurs when people want to be
their own authority.[/quote]
While Christians often speak of events as if Israel "wandered"
in the wilderness, we find that God led them the forty years
they spent in it.
This is a misleading translation:
Num 14:33 And your children shall wander in the wilderness forty
years, and bear your whoredoms, until your carcases be wasted in
the wilderness.
The word there is ra'ar, meaning "to graze" or "to pasture."
(See BlueBible
HTML http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=H7462&t=KJV.)
They did not wander as we may think. They were following the
Pillar. They moved when the Pillar moved. God was still their
Shepherd and they "grazed" where He directed them. David
reminded the people of his day that they were His people,
warning them not to behave as their parents had; and we cannot
escape the fact that David called them "sheep."
Psalm 95:7 For he is our God; and we are the people of his
pasture, and the sheep of his hand. To day if ye will hear his
voice,
8 Harden not your heart, as in the provocation, and as in the
day of temptation in the wilderness:
That they rebelled did not mean they were no longer God's sheep.
No, God let them have what they demanded; but God did not
desert them. Paul tells us all Israel will be saved. But
all the adults who said they wanted to die in the wilderness did
die as they requested. (Similarly when the people demanded a
king, God told Samuel to let them have one.)
It may appear to us that people are wandering in the wilderness;
but is that possible if they are God's sheep? People may wander
for a while perhaps, but if they are God's sheep, someone will
go find them eventually.
In all this, I think we find people learning from their
mistakes. If they rebel or even want to wander off at times,
it is allowed; and just as a sheep learns from its experiences
alone without the protection of a shepherd, we can hope that
people learn too if they lack a shepherd or if they have chosen
to follow false shepherds. I think the people of Israel
learned something in that forty years of the wilderness. To
their credit, they followed the Pillar even though they knew
they would not enter the Land of Promise. I believe they
followed it so their children might enter. They needed to learn
not only to love God but also to value their children's liberty
above things like the cucumbers and leeks of slavery.
What about unity and the Catholic Church? Who is the real
Patriarch of Antioch? That is a complicated question of
history; but we all know there can't really be five. Does
anyone know who the real one is? It seems not. Not even the
Bishops of Rome seem to know; or if they know, they don't take
action. Three of the five are in "full communion" with Rome.
There used to be a sixth one, and he too was in full communion
with Rome. When the last one of that line died in 1953, Rome
didn't replace him, allowing that line to go extinct.
That line was absurd, established when the Crusaders were around
and established a Latin Rite church. The Mamelukes drove them
out in the 13th Century; but Popes kept naming Latin Rite
Patriarchs who had no congregations in fact. They were given
the important church in Italy, the Basilica of St. Mary Major in
Rome as their seat. They weren't in Antioch, hadn't been in
Antioch in centuries, and had no followers. Yet for about
300 years or so, Rome insisted this was the correct Patriarch
of Antioch (or at least one of them). The correct thing to do
was to drop it, and that finally happened. That was one less
piece of confusion; but we still have five contenders. Other
old wounds inflicted by one set of Christians on another set of
Christians have not yet been healed.
Perhaps what is happening now is God's way of letting people
work things out. Israel was sometimes defeated by other people
to chastise them, so perhaps that is what happening with
Christians in Syria.
#Post#: 2513--------------------------------------------------
Re: Is the World 'Looking Away'?
By: Kerry Date: July 11, 2015, 3:15 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Amadeus link=topic=114.msg2510#msg2510
date=1436642810]
[font=courier]You're right that the Catholic has much than many
Protestants lack. The difficulty always is in seeking out and
finding the proper guidance to go the way the Lord wants us to
go. There are some that are better as organizations go and some
perhaps better as information goes. The problem with
organizations is what we see with these United States of ours.
In their beginning they seemingly had a very good systems of
checks and balances, and all of that. Still it was man's
organization. The same thing occurs or can occur wherever we go.
The difference must be in our connection [or the lack thereof]
with God Himself.
The problem with those with seemingly better information is
whether or not the information we are getting is from God or
not.
[/font]
[font=courier]Unity exists in various places in various degrees.
The workers who were building the tower of Babel were unified,
but it was obviously their purpose was wrong.
With organized churches... I must include the Catholics here...
their purpose for me is also wrong. I will grant that a person
can rest in the guidance of the RCC, but again this doesn't say
it is ultimately right for each of us. I was strong in the RCC
all during my early years of development. My best counselors and
friends were in it until I graduated from high school. My focus
was seriously on becoming a Catholic priest, myself. I have not
forgotten all of those things, but God has shown me something
else. For me anyway, it is certainly better.
[/font][/quote]
All authority is from God. We can say, with some factual
basis, I think, that the Catholic Church has often exceeded the
limits of its lawful authority by being overly domineering in
areas it should not entered; but perhaps now there is a need to
work this out for them? Perhaps there are people who benefit
from such authority? Perhaps Catholic leaders also need to
learn something?
[quote][font=courier]But, while what you say is so, the only
always True leader is Jesus. He is the only Head of his Body.
People within the Catholic Church as well as outside of it have
missed this too often. Getting into the Catholic Church for some
may not be wrong, but it is no guarantee of getting it right
with God either. The only guarantee for that is in Jesus. He is
not restricted to members of one particular group or
organization or church or another as men see them.[/font]
[/quote]Jesus is not here on the earth now.
It seems to me that one basic flaw in Protestant thinking is
their justification of rebellion. Even Israel accepted the
verdict of God when told they would die in the wilderness. They
did not start a new religion.
When people are evil, sometimes God's Will is to give them evil
men to rule over them. Justifying rebellion on the basis that
religious leaders are evil is flimsy in its own way. First it
is asserting that we do not trust God to supply what we need.
I think sometimes having bad leaders is what people need and
God gives them.
Secondly if we say our rebellion is justified because someone
else is imperfect, we are saying our leaders should be perfect.
We are expecting them to be God. If we have imperfect
leaders, we should pray for them; and if we can forgive them,
then we can hope to be forgiven ourselves. Saying we'll start
our own church because others are imperfect is really a claim to
be perfect ourselves and to have a perfect understanding of the
Scriptures -- this seems like bold arrogance to me.
[quote][font=courier]As long as you are not saying that the path
our Lord set forth is only to found in the RCC, I'll not
disagree. There may be Catholics who are on the Lord's side, but
there are certainly others on the Lord's side as well.
[/font][/quote]There are times when I rejoice to see the
afflictions put upon Protestants by their leaders. I see the
people in the congregations as being God's sheep; and if they
are afflicted by false shepherds, I see the Wisdom of God behind
it all.
[quote][font=courier]If your only real solace is in the RCC, is
it not because you have found Jesus there? Is Jesus not the
answer to anyone who really finds the right answer?
[/font][/quote]
If Jesus is in the Catholic Church, what about the people who
say he is not and who call the Catholic Church the Whore of
Babylon?
If someone has the Holy Spirit and I say he is of the Devil,
what have I done? What have I done to myself?
[quote][font=courier]Courage to speak the truth, God's truth, if
a person has it and speaks it, does it not come also from God? I
would hope that I never again lean so heavily on one mortal man,
who is not the Christ. (Yes, I have done so.) The man, Francis,
may be many things good through God, but he is still also just a
man of corruptible flesh as each of us is. If he is to be your
leader in the Lord, so be it, but remember always the words
penned by Paul:
"Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ." I Cor 11:1
Paul added the underlined portion recognizing his own ability to
fail.[/font][/quote]
I don't find this much of a problem. If any religious leaders
speaks, I can usually tell if he is trying to gather or to
scatter. I can also usually tell if his motive is to aggrandize
himself and increase his power or glory or if it is to benefit
me and others.
A shepherd's directions are not to benefit himself. The person
who speaks to benefit himself should not be followed; but the
Christian leader who speaks out of love and to benefit others
should be respected and his words should be revered almost as if
Jesus himself was speaking to us. If we recognize the Voice of
Love, we should follow it. This Pope, like other Popes, has
said some things I don't know about; but some things he has said
seem so true to me and so motivated by Love, I can only treat
his words as if Jesus himself had said them to me. That
principle applies to everyone else I hear too. It can apply to
someone who seems to be a nobody. Sometimes the "unimportant
person" is Jesus' way of speaking to me. I hope I can hear
Jesus' Voice no matter whose mouth he may be using. If I or
others follow false voices, I assume it may be something we need
to do so we learn how to distinguish between the Voice of Love
and the other sort of voices.
#Post#: 2516--------------------------------------------------
Re: Is the World 'Looking Away'?
By: Amadeus Date: July 11, 2015, 3:56 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Kerry link=topic=114.msg2513#msg2513
date=1436645718]
All authority is from God. We can say, with some factual
basis, I think, that the Catholic Church has often exceeded the
limits of its lawful authority by being overly domineering in
areas it should not entered; but perhaps now there is a need to
work this out for them? Perhaps there are people who benefit
from such authority? Perhaps Catholic leaders also need to
learn something?
Jesus is not here on the earth now.[/quote]
[font=courier]Yes, all authority is from God either from His
right hand or from his left. Always we have had the choice or
doing it God's Way (what I would call his right hand work) or
our own way (often used to accomplish God's left hand work.).
Jesus is not here? No, not in the sense that he was here on this
earth in his flesh 2000 years ago, but is what he was and was
able to do , not available today to people through the Holy
Spirit, the Comforter that Jesus sent?
I agree that Catholic leaders along with others have at times
been, I believe, very wrong. Being in error hardly is the final
condemnation, is it, ... unless of course somehow we make it so.
[/font]
[quote]It seems to me that one basic flaw in Protestant thinking
is their justification of rebellion. Even Israel accepted the
verdict of God when told they would die in the wilderness. They
did not start a new religion.[/quote]
[font=courier]If they didn't, didn't some of them take on the
trappings of other men's religions? Don't people sometmes today
stay in the church (still sitting on the pew regularly) while
effectively traveling along their own road? [/font]
[quote]When people are evil, sometimes God's Will is to give
them evil men to rule over them. Justifying rebellion on the
basis that religious leaders are evil is flimsy in its own way.
First it is asserting that we do not trust God to supply what
we need. I think sometimes having bad leaders is what people
need and God gives them.[/quote]
[font=courier]I agree! [/font]
[quote]Secondly if we say our rebellion is justified because
someone else is imperfect, we are saying our leaders should be
perfect. We are expecting them to be God. If we have
imperfect leaders, we should pray for them; and if we can
forgive them, then we can hope to be forgiven ourselves.
Saying we'll start our own church because others are imperfect
is really a claim to be perfect ourselves and to have a perfect
understanding of the Scriptures -- this seems like bold
arrogance to me.[/quote]
[font=courier]Agreed![/font]
[quote]There are times when I rejoice to see the afflictions put
upon Protestants by their leaders. I see the people in the
congregations as being God's sheep; and if they are afflicted by
false shepherds, I see the Wisdom of God behind it all.[/quote]
[font=courier]So do I!
[/font]
[quote]If Jesus is in the Catholic Church, what about the people
who say he is not and who call the Catholic Church the whore of
Babylon?[/quote]
[font=courier]Though I know some who would call her that, I want
to go to the heart of the individual, which is where God looks.
Until I can see his heart, even if some of associations seem
evil to me, who am I to speak out against him? As to the group
(the RCC or any other) again who am I to condemn them all when I
cannot see into the heart of even one of them? If she is or is
to be that as they say, then will not the "Come out of her"
apply to them and be spoken to them that are able to "hear" what
the Spirit is saying? [/font]
[quote]If someone has the Holy Spirit and I say he is of the
Devil, what have I done? What have I done to myself?[/quote]
[font=courier]Isn't that effectively what some did to Jesus?
And...
"Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what
they do." Luke 23:34
Certainly some of those for whom he asked forgiveness went on to
eventually be his faithful followers. What did they do to
themselves?[/font]
[quote]I don't find this much of a problem. If any religious
leaders speaks, I can usually tell if he is trying to gather or
to scatter. I can also usually tell if his motive is to
aggrandize himself and increase his power or glory or if it is
to benefit me and others.[/quote]
[font=courier]If you usually can then either the person is very
transparent to anyone or you have a gift of discernment of some
sort to enable you to do what too many others too often
cannot.[/font]
[quote]A shepherd's directions are not to benefit himself. The
person who speaks to benefit himself should not be followed; but
the Christian leader who speaks out of love and to benefit
others should be respected and his words should be revered
almost as if Jesus himself was speaking to us. If we recognize
the Voice of Love, we should follow it. This Pope, like other
Popes, has said some things I don't know about; but some things
he has said seem so true to me and so motivated by Love, I can
only treat his words as if Jesus himself had said them to me.
That principle applies to everyone else I hear too. It can
apply to someone who seems to be a nobody. Sometimes the
"unimportant person" is Jesus' way of speaking to me. I hope I
can hear Jesus' Voice no matter whose mouth he may be using.
If I or others follow false voices, I assume it may be something
we need to do so we learn how to distinguish between the Voice
of Love and the other sort of voices.
[/quote]
[font=courier]If the Pope is the Anti-Christ or the Devil, I
have not seen it either. I have, on the other hand, heard him
say some good things. He is also a mixture of good and evil
things. Condemning him or anyone else is not part of my job
description. Others may think it is part of theirs. I hope for
their sakes that they know what they are doing.[/font]
#Post#: 2518--------------------------------------------------
Re: Is the World 'Looking Away'?
By: Kerry Date: July 11, 2015, 6:47 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Amadeus link=topic=114.msg2516#msg2516
date=1436648197]
Yes, all authority is from God either from His right hand or
from his left. Always we have had the choice or doing it God's
Way (what I would call his right hand work) or our own way
(often used to accomplish God's left hand work.).
[/quote]I would say it was the "left hand" that confused the
people at the Tower of Babel. God (meaning the "right hand") is
not the author of confusion.
[quote]Jesus is not here? No, not in the sense that he was here
on this earth in his flesh 2000 years ago, but is what he was
and was able to do , not available today to people through the
Holy Spirit, the Comforter that Jesus sent?[/quote]I would ask
myself if I might be an arrogant fool if I believed Jesus was
not working through others and needed me to be "the only one" to
speak or act on his behalf. I would seriously doubt my own
spiritual sanity if I began to believe that Jesus stopped
working through his servants nearly two thousand years ago and
that I was "the one" to establish a church that failed so long
ago.
[quote]I agree that Catholic leaders along with others have at
times been, I believe, very wrong. Being in error hardly is the
final condemnation, is it, ... unless of course somehow we make
it so. [/quote]
Ah yes, I agree. I'd say the early Church wandered off into
error quite early; but I see God at work in it.
[quote]If they didn't, didn't some of them take on the trappings
of other men's religions?[/quote]
The ones who were "grazed" in the wilderness for forty years did
not. They followed the Pillar and obeyed Moses. Perhaps they
were foolish in one way; but in another way, they realized they
lacked the spiritual discernment that Moses had.
Does God judge the followers if they are misled by their
leaders? I don't think God does judge people that way, not
if they trust their leaders because of their faith in God. If
we have faith in God, we should believe God will provide the
right leaders for us. If they err, God will not punish the
people they misled. I believe He will reward them for trusting
in Him to provide leaders. Thus Jews were told not to try
to interpret the Law of Moses for themselves but to obey the
Sanhedrin. Jesus agreed with that.
Most people do not have the time to study matters intensely at
length. Many (perhaps most) people should also realize and
accept gracefully that they are spiritually blind and deaf.
They cannot hear God themselves and need leaders. Now you have
seen at times I have made claims about receiving visions and
speaking personally with Jesus, Mary, and saints and angels. I
would not call myself spiritually blind or deaf; but I would be
worried about being self-deluded if I couldn't find other people
who agreed with what I received by spiritual means. If Heaven
reveals something to me, I suspect others have been told the
same thing before; so I will search to see if spiritual and
educated men before me have said something similar. I do not
trust my own judgment by itself.
[quote] Though I know some who would call her that, I want to
go to the heart of the individual, which is where God looks.
Until I can see his heart, even if some of associations seem
evil to me, who am I to speak out against him? As to the group
(the RCC or any other) again who am I to condemn them all when I
cannot see into the heart of even one of them? If she is or is
to be that as they say, then will not the "Come out of her"
apply to them and be spoken to them that are able to "hear" what
the Spirit is saying?
Isn't that effectively what some did to Jesus? And...
"Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what
they do." Luke 23:34[/quote]
That was the Romans. They knew little of the Holy Spirit.
[quote]Certainly some of those for whom he asked forgiveness
went on to eventually be his faithful followers. What did they
do to themselves?[/quote]Yes, but what about the people who said
he had an unclean spirit? The scribes who said he operated by
Beelzebub?
Now if they lacked the Holy Spirit when they said that, they
were driving the Spirit away by refusing to acknowledge it when
they saw it; and if they had it and accused Jesus falsely
because they feared losing their own authority or influence if
they acknowledged the Spirit in Jesus, then they were telling
the Spirit that was in them to go get lost. I lean to the
latter option. I think many of the Jewish leaders knew what was
what but feared a loss of their influence. I also believe if
you revile the Spirit when you know it's in someone else, you
can't have it in yourself for long. Reviling the Spirit in
ignorance is another matter.
[quote]If you usually can then either the person is very
transparent to anyone or you have a gift of discernment of some
sort to enable you to do what too many others too often cannot.
[/quote]Jesus said his sheep can hear his voice. Now if I
follow a false leader and find out later I was deceived when he
goes down in flames, that should tell me something about myself.
I shouldn't be angry at the false leader. I also shouldn't try
to justify him. I should ask myself why I wanted to believe
in him. What was wrong with me?
It takes two to tango. We can't have false leaders without
having dubious followers of Christ who want their ears tickled
more than to take up their crosses and to follow him. It
never ceases to amaze me when some congregations rush to the
defense of pastors when their sins and crimes are revealed.
It's as if they still want to be deceived. The hymn goes
"Revive us again," but they seem to be singing, "Deceive us
again." I tell you this: When I know I have a weakness that
made me want to be deceived and when I can see how someone was
clever enough to deceive me, I'm not about to do that again.
If he was clever enough to deceive me once, I won't trust him
again. Not at all. I don't have a grudge about it. On the
contrary, I am grateful in a way for it all. God has just shown
me how I could be deceived in the past. It's sad that someone
else had to take a fall to teach me; but I took a fall too. Why
can't the false pastors take their falls and admit they're not
real pastors? Why do they make a mockery out of forgiveness,
saying their congregations owe it to them to forgive them and
more than forgive -- to let them in power so they have the
opportunity to repeat things?
That is like a thief convicted in court for his thefts saying
someone should hire him to take care of money -- or it means
they are holding a grudge and haven't forgiven him. No, I say
you shouldn't tempt people if you know their weaknesses. I'd
tell the thief I might hire him for something else, but I
wouldn't put him in a position where he might be tempted to
steal again since he has that weakness.
[quote]If the Pope is the Anti-Christ or the Devil, I have not
seen it either. I have, on the other hand, heard him say some
good things. He is also a mixture of good and evil things.
Condemning him or anyone else is not part of my job description.
Others may think it is part of theirs. I hope for their sakes
that they know what they are doing.[/quote]
The rule I have for myself is that the person who casts the
first stone is probably guilty of what he's accusing someone
else of. There are denominations which still teach such
things; and I find their accusations divisive and satanic. I
judge them as they were so fast to judge -- but mind now, I do
not always think that of the people in the pews -- bur I think
it of the men who invented such ideas and taught others to
believe them. Such men sought to establish themselves as
authorities by attacking others. To me, they are purveyors of
hate. They seek to divide, to scatter -- not to gather
together.
#Post#: 2526--------------------------------------------------
Re: Is the World 'Looking Away'?
By: Piper Date: July 11, 2015, 11:04 pm
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[font=trebuchet ms]Amadeus,
When I spoke of looking the other way (referring to the thread
title), until the fires are burning in our homeland, I meant
that it is easy (though not right) to ignore violence and
persecution until it begins to occur where we, ourselves, live.
Kerry,
Perhaps 'wandering' is not a precise translation. Nonetheless,
this faith for me was wandering and confusion with every man
claiming to be led by the Spirit, but all teaching utterly
conflicting things. I suppose God led me through the confusion
so I might rest in His Church and be thankful. Which I am. I
went to Mass this evening and felt at peace. I feel I'm where I
belong. It was a quiet, reverent worship, beautiful in its way.
Thank you both for your posts, which I'll definitely read and
consider, but I'm too tired to write more for now.
[/font]
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