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#Post#: 10656--------------------------------------------------
Re: 1st ruled out goal by VAR in PL
DIR By: Ashington46
Date: September 1, 2019, 11:08 am
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--- Quote from: Carter link ---
>
> Its all about looking after each other and nothing to do with
proper and fair implimetation.
>
> The ref makes the decision knowing that its not going to be
overturned. Probably because as others have said the ref is
saying I have had a good view of it, so no changing it.
>
> He can just stand there with his finger on his ear supposedly
selling to everyone its being reviewed, knowing the decision
will stand (other than offsides) so when VAR says play on he can
just say its not me its them.
> This whole strategy is designed to make the refs match control
easier and not right the Clear & Obvious wrongs
>
> Conspiracy maybe, jobs for the boys certainly, bad for the
game definitely.
>
> The quicker evryone realises the better and its got rid of.
>
--- End Quote ---
I am surprised that anyone thinks that they will ditch VAR. FIFA
brought it into operation and it is they who say what is going
to happen in world football. Other leagues are now in their
third season using it, although the PL are in the first season
and using their own 'watered down' version.
The whole thing is very much media driven and, in my opinion, it
is this fact which will increase its use such as they are
suggesting 'robot' ARs.
Technology is taking over and it seems to be what the younger
fans are craving for rather than accepting that all officials,
whether they be on the field or sat in a booth, are human and
will make mistakes just as players do and it is this which makes
the game watchable.
#Post#: 10657--------------------------------------------------
Re: 1st ruled out goal by VAR in PL
DIR By: guest320
Date: September 1, 2019, 11:38 am
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Well being a Watford supporter I am particularly miffed about
the Newcastle goal that was allowed to stand yesterday. The main
reason being that as far as I was concerned this was not a
subjective decision. We were told in the summer repeatedly that
any instance where the ball struck the arm/hand of an attacker
in the immediate build up to a goal would lead to the goal being
disallowed. We saw two instances (Wolves and Man City) where
this was the case already this season.
How Craig Pawson could have looked at a replay of that goal and
not noticed it hit the Newcastle attacker's arm is beyond me.
Everybody I have spoken to noticed it as soon as they watched
the slow motion replay which Pawson would have presumably had
available to him. If he didn't it is a massive fault of the
PL/broadcaster not to make the correct angles available to get
the correct decision. If Pawson did have the correct angle and
just didn't spot it, then I'm sorry but that makes him unfit for
referee in the PL IMO.
#Post#: 10659--------------------------------------------------
Re: 1st ruled out goal by VAR in PL
DIR By: Readingfan
Date: September 1, 2019, 1:04 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Microscopist link ---
>
> Having seen how VAR is being applied with such a high
threshold for overturning decisions -
> as one City fan puts it -
> [quote]A referee missing that a player has taken out a machete
and lopped off an opposition attacker’s leg at the knee.
> And even then the threshold for blood loss is very high for
the no penalty decision to be overturned.
>
--- End Quote ---
- then it would have been wise to have announced at the
beginning that VAR would be introduced gradually, In the first
season perhaps just for offside decisions (and then only for
those outwith the margin of error in the measurement). But that
is with hindsight.
Meantime VAR is bringing refereeing into disrepute and the two
decisions yesterday to chalk off Villa's equaliser and to allow
Newcastle's are really beyond the pale. The former because it
simply defies any explanation either for the referee's decision
or for VAR not bailing him out by saying "You'd better award a
penalty". The latter, whilst defensible in itself, in the
context of two high profile previous decisions that were
defended suggests that not all ball to hand contacts by
attackers leading to a goal are going to treated equally.
How to get out of it? Well, as the saying goes "I wouldn't
start from here."
[/quote]
I struggle to see a justification for giving a penalty in the
Palace V Villa game. It obviously should have been a goal but
Friend was too hasty on the whistle so took that option away
from VAR.
I struggle to believe the Newcastle one was due to interpreting
the handball law in a different way. I can only think that
Pawson wan't precise enough in viewing the replays and didn't
take the required time to spot the ball hitting the hand.
The PL couldn't formally introduce a system of VAR that only
looked at offsides. They were quite clear before the season
started that there would be a very high bar for 'clear and
obvious' - I don't think there was a single decision changed by
VAR this weekend. I wonder how many other leagues using VAR have
ever had that?
#Post#: 10664--------------------------------------------------
Re: 1st ruled out goal by VAR in PL
DIR By: Microscopist
Date: September 1, 2019, 3:30 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote ---
> I struggle to see a justification for giving a penalty in the
Palace V Villa game. It obviously should have been a goal but
Friend was too hasty on the whistle so took that option away
from VAR.
--- End Quote ---
I agree that by the standards for overturning a non-penalty
decision it fails; although I've seen penalties given for less.
However, forget the letter of the law and look at in terms of
natural justice. Watford have a double injustice - a very much
uncalled for yellow card (particularly against some of the
antics in today's Arsenal-Spurs game) and a goal chalked off.
Awarding a penalty removes the first injustice and gives a
chance of removing the second. Possibly a case of humanity vs
robots?
--- Quote ---
>
> The PL couldn't formally introduce a system of VAR that only
looked at offsides. They were quite clear before the season
started that there would be a very high bar for 'clear and
obvious' - I don't think there was a single decision changed by
VAR this weekend. I wonder how many other leagues using VAR have
ever had that?
--- End Quote ---
They seemed able to cite that they weren't going to scrutinise
goalkeepers moving off their line; and their de facto position
seems to be not to change any subjective decision. OK, they
could just state that the threshold for overturning subjective
decisions is similar to the machete example.
--- Quote ---
> I struggle to believe the Newcastle one was due to
interpreting the handball law in a different way. I can only
think that Pawson wan't precise enough in viewing the replays
and didn't take the required time to spot the ball hitting the
hand.
--- End Quote ---
Treated equally includes being given equal scrutiny.
#Post#: 10669--------------------------------------------------
Re: 1st ruled out goal by VAR in PL
DIR By: reflector
Date: September 2, 2019, 1:46 am
---------------------------------------------------------
A concern I have is the practice of using current SG members as
VARs. For instance, Andy Madley was Kevin Friend's VAR in the
Palace v Villa game. As a 'junior' member of the SG, it would
take a very strong minded individual to try to overturn one of a
far more experienced and long established referee's decisions
and, in any case, both will be aware that their roles could
well be reversed in a future match.
I am not suggesting that either would intentionally behave
unprofessionally but it is only human nature to support
colleagues and friends (no pun intended here!) and, often, such
a thing could be done subconsciously particularly when such
decisions have to be made in a matter of seconds. As has been
stated before, there are other reasons too to have former
referees in such a role but it would seem to me to make for
better, and fairer, decision making.
#Post#: 10670--------------------------------------------------
Re: 1st ruled out goal by VAR in PL
DIR By: Ref Fan
Date: September 2, 2019, 2:43 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Readingfan link ---
>
> This is the Times interview with Oliver and Taylor -
HTML https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/michael-oliver-i-don-t-like-driving-home-for-four-hours-knowing-i-have-made-a-critical-mistake-kdd88g0nc
>
> Some interesting quotes such as '“VAR was brought in for when
100 per cent of people were saying that’s a penalty or that’s a
red card.” and “It’s not what VAR should be for, where you
potentially change a decision and still have a debate. When we
are discussing clips like that as a group, if we can’t come to a
consensus then the VAR should stay well out of the way.”
>
> In many ways, I do have sympathy with the PL's position. It
seems to me they would rather be accused of using VAR too little
rather than too much, as we saw at competitions such as the
Women's World Cup where it became far too intrusive. Their aim
does seem to fit in with the initial foundation of VAR - the
main problem seems to be that some clear and obvious errors
haven't been spotted, and certainly there can be no defence for
Craig Pawson's decision in the Newcastle V Watford game
considering what has been applied so far.
>
--- End Quote ---
Thanks for the link readingfan. Registered and read the full
article. Some interesting quotes as you say, and it confirms
the bar has been set very high.
Oliver said that opinion was split on the Kompany YC in the City
v Liverpool game last season with some of the SG1 saying red,
some yellow and some that neither was wrong. I just wonder
though about the 100% interpretation for a decision to be
overturned when Oliver went on to mention "a consensus". That
doesn't imply unanimity. In a court of law, a majority verdict
can sometimes be accepted if there is one maverick on the jury.
Would some of the referees having watched replays of incidents
in games these last couple of weeks still feel they made the
correct, or at least reasonable, decisions?
#Post#: 10674--------------------------------------------------
Re: 1st ruled out goal by VAR in PL
DIR By: Readingfan
Date: September 2, 2019, 4:23 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: reflector link ---
>
> A concern I have is the practice of using current SG members
as VARs. For instance, Andy Madley was Kevin Friend's VAR in
the Palace v Villa game. As a 'junior' member of the SG, it
would take a very strong minded individual to try to overturn
one of a far more experienced and long established referee's
decisions and, in any case, both will be aware that their roles
could well be reversed in a future match.
>
> I am not suggesting that either would intentionally behave
unprofessionally but it is only human nature to support
colleagues and friends (no pun intended here!) and, often, such
a thing could be done subconsciously particularly when such
decisions have to be made in a matter of seconds. As has been
stated before, there are other reasons too to have former
referees in such a role but it would seem to me to make for
better, and fairer, decision making.
>
--- End Quote ---
But if that is the concern, then that presumes none of the
former officials have friendships, networks or tensions with the
current referees.
The likes of Martin Atkinson and Andre Marriner were involved in
some of the contentious VAR incidents over the weekend. You can
imagine if we were a couple of years forward and they'd both
retired people saying 'Don't use Paul Tierney as a VAR when he's
still refereeing! Why aren't they using Atkinson or Marriner as
VARs?'
I think the current issues run deeper than just who is being
used in the role and I'm not convinced there are 10 former
Premier League referees who would be suitable for the role and
willing to do it.
I don't discount the possibility that there are better VAR
operators in the country than some of the current Premier League
referees, who have got to their level based on their
performances on the pitch. But equally it is going to take a
while to try and train and identify those individuals (if that
is what they wanted to do) and of course we've seen in other
circles that the momenta Championship referee gets appointed as
a VAR some people say 'what experience does he have of Premier
League football??'
#Post#: 10677--------------------------------------------------
Re: 1st ruled out goal by VAR in PL
DIR By: Acme Thunderer
Date: September 2, 2019, 5:35 am
---------------------------------------------------------
I've only just managed to catch up with TV highlights after
being away. Looking at the Championship games where there is
currently no VAR, there was a dreadful decision by Robert Jones
to allow Blackburn a winning goal at Hull, after a Blackburn
player climbed all over the Hull goalie at a corner, and there
was also a red card challenge at (?) Charlton which only got a
yellow. These are the sorts of incidents which VAR was intended
to pick up on. I suspect the PL players are now being coached
with VAR in mind, whilst no such need exists further down the
scale, and this, in my view, is a pity.
#Post#: 10678--------------------------------------------------
Re: 1st ruled out goal by VAR in PL
DIR By: Ashington46
Date: September 2, 2019, 5:44 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Ref Fan link ---
>
> [quote author=Readingfan link=topic=933.msg10646#msg10646
date=1567337024]
> This is the Times interview with Oliver and Taylor -
HTML https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/michael-oliver-i-don-t-like-driving-home-for-four-hours-knowing-i-have-made-a-critical-mistake-kdd88g0nc
>
> Some interesting quotes such as '“VAR was brought in for when
100 per cent of people were saying that’s a penalty or that’s a
red card.” and “It’s not what VAR should be for, where you
potentially change a decision and still have a debate. When we
are discussing clips like that as a group, if we can’t come to a
consensus then the VAR should stay well out of the way.”
>
> In many ways, I do have sympathy with the PL's position. It
seems to me they would rather be accused of using VAR too little
rather than too much, as we saw at competitions such as the
Women's World Cup where it became far too intrusive. Their aim
does seem to fit in with the initial foundation of VAR - the
main problem seems to be that some clear and obvious errors
haven't been spotted, and certainly there can be no defence for
Craig Pawson's decision in the Newcastle V Watford game
considering what has been applied so far.
>
--- End Quote ---
Thanks for the link readingfan. Registered and read the full
article. Some interesting quotes as you say, and it confirms
the bar has been set very high.
Oliver said that opinion was split on the Kompany YC in the City
v Liverpool game last season with some of the SG1 saying red,
some yellow and some that neither was wrong. I just wonder
though about the 100% interpretation for a decision to be
overturned when Oliver went on to mention "a consensus". That
doesn't imply unanimity. In a court of law, a majority verdict
can sometimes be accepted if there is one maverick on the jury.
Would some of the referees having watched replays of incidents
in games these last couple of weeks still feel they made the
correct, or at least reasonable, decisions?
[/quote]
Very interesting point about a court of law, however, we are
talking about a football match with onfield officials who make
what they consider to be a correct decision as they see it, if
they are not doing this they should not be officiating.
Yes, on reflection and when the match is dissected, they may
then feel that they have not made the correct decision and this
should make them aware on future occasions.
The use of VAR is not helping the game and their is still no
consistency. Instead of discussing the game, people are now
discussing whether or not the VAR interpretation was correct or
why did it not change this or that decision, however, how may
decisions are made in a football match that rely solely on the
opinion of the onfield official? Are these not also important to
the game? It would seem not!
#Post#: 10681--------------------------------------------------
Re: 1st ruled out goal by VAR in PL
DIR By: Readingfan
Date: September 2, 2019, 6:08 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Dermot Gallagher was on SSN earlier.
Regarding the Watford V West Ham penalty appeal, he said he
thought it should have been a penalty and he thought VAR should
have intervened.
Regarding Leicester V Bournemouth, he said he thought it should
have been a red card but he had spoken to plenty of people who
didn't think it was so he thought VAR was right not to
intervene.
Regarding Newcastle V Watford, he said that the goal should have
been disallowed but Craig Pawson hadn't seen the handball,
whether because he'd felt under pressure to complete the check
too quickly or because he hadn't seen the relevant angle.
Gallagher said VARs would be encouraged to take an extra 10 or
15 seconds if needed to complete a check and ensure they had
gone through the whole checklist of possible offences.
Regarding Palace V Aston Villa, he said he didn't think it was
simulation but he didn't think it was a penalty (I would suggest
the kind of compromise Microscopist suggested previously is more
difficult to apply with VAR). The learning point is to delay the
whistle when a goal might be imminently scored.
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