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#Post#: 10238--------------------------------------------------
Re: 1st ruled out goal by VAR in PL
DIR By: ajb95
Date: August 21, 2019, 7:09 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Ashington46 link ---
>
> [quote author=Readingfan link=topic=933.msg10234#msg10234
date=1566382349]
> It seems unlikely to me that a penalty would be required
because the defender presumably wouldn't count as an attacking
player at that point, although granted I don't think it's clear
at what point a handball by a member of the scoring team is
penalised.
>
--- End Quote ---
Imagine the scenario in the last game of the season between
Arsenal and Spurs. Arsenal need 3 points to be sure of staying
up and Spurs need 3 points to become League Champions for the
first time since 1960/61. The match is in added time and the
defender is an Arsenal player who does exactly as described.
This means that Arsenal score and win the game 1-0 and thus
avoid relegation, meanwhile, Spurs are pipped at the post and
are not Champions.
Meanwhile a peaceful night ensues in North London.
[/quote]
Logically that means then - to reduce doubt and indecision - all
handballs should be penalised. But nobody wants that do they?
#Post#: 10254--------------------------------------------------
Re: 1st ruled out goal by VAR in PL
DIR By: Microscopist
Date: August 21, 2019, 2:56 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote ---
> Head of VAR (quoted by Manchester Evening News) - "It was
looked at. The arm was around the top of the body fractionally.
If you look at that in slow motion multiple times, it’s
exaggerated. We look at it in real time, that’s how we referee
games and that’s how we use VAR," he told BBC Radio 5Live......
“The arm was around the top of the body, yet Rodri fell forward.
He didn’t fall backwards like he was pulled, he fell forward, so
he felt contact, can he win the header? No he can’t, so he’s
gone down looking for a penalty.
--- End Quote ---
"The arm was around the top of the body fractionally." -
fractionally! it was round his neck and almost connecting with
other arm which was round his back.
But ref my fist was only in contact with his nose fractionally.
"We look at it in real time, that’s how we referee games and
that’s how we use VAR" - Unless its an accidental handball-
apparently.
“The arm was around the top of the body, yet Rodri fell forward.
He didn’t fall backwards like he was pulled, he fell forward, so
he felt contact, can he win the header? No he can’t, so he’s
gone down looking for a penalty." - So Rodri dived? What about
the two Spurs players pushing him from behind?
Well Ref Fan you and I may be facing the perils of Shakespeare's
seventh age but I think Swarbrick is ahead of us despite his
relative lack of years.
Aaagh just as I was starting to calm down.
#Post#: 10259--------------------------------------------------
Re: 1st ruled out goal by VAR in PL
DIR By: Ashington46
Date: August 21, 2019, 3:55 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Microscopist link ---
>
> [quote]Head of VAR (quoted by Manchester Evening News) - "It
was looked at. The arm was around the top of the body
fractionally. If you look at that in slow motion multiple times,
it’s exaggerated. We look at it in real time, that’s how we
referee games and that’s how we use VAR," he told BBC Radio
5Live...... “The arm was around the top of the body, yet Rodri
fell forward. He didn’t fall backwards like he was pulled, he
fell forward, so he felt contact, can he win the header? No he
can’t, so he’s gone down looking for a penalty.
--- End Quote ---
"The arm was around the top of the body fractionally." -
fractionally! it was round his neck and almost connecting with
other arm which was round his back.
But ref my fist was only in contact with his nose fractionally.
"We look at it in real time, that’s how we referee games and
that’s how we use VAR" - Unless its an accidental handball-
apparently.
“The arm was around the top of the body, yet Rodri fell forward.
He didn’t fall backwards like he was pulled, he fell forward, so
he felt contact, can he win the header? No he can’t, so he’s
gone down looking for a penalty." - So Rodri dived? What about
the two Spurs players pushing him from behind?
Well Ref Fan you and I may be facing the perils of Shakespeare's
seventh age but I think Swarbrick is ahead of us despite his
relative lack of years.
Aaagh just as I was starting to calm down.
[/quote]
You really should calm down and come to terms with the fact that
VAR rules and onfield officials in the PL are just subsidiary to
make things seem normal! :) The Championship and lower leagues
are great to watch and the referee's decision is still final
whether it is right or wrong. Players still make as many
mistakes as those at the top level but they do seem able to cope
with this better than a lot of prima donnas.
#Post#: 10265--------------------------------------------------
Re: 1st ruled out goal by VAR in PL
DIR By: guest18
Date: August 22, 2019, 2:06 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: ajb95 link ---
>
> [quote author=Ashington46 link=topic=933.msg10237#msg10237
date=1566388810]
> [quote author=Readingfan link=topic=933.msg10234#msg10234
date=1566382349]
> It seems unlikely to me that a penalty would be required
because the defender presumably wouldn't count as an attacking
player at that point, although granted I don't think it's clear
at what point a handball by a member of the scoring team is
penalised.
>
--- End Quote ---
Imagine the scenario in the last game of the season between
Arsenal and Spurs. Arsenal need 3 points to be sure of staying
up and Spurs need 3 points to become League Champions for the
first time since 1960/61. The match is in added time and the
defender is an Arsenal player who does exactly as described.
This means that Arsenal score and win the game 1-0 and thus
avoid relegation, meanwhile, Spurs are pipped at the post and
are not Champions.
Meanwhile a peaceful night ensues in North London.
[/quote]
Logically that means then - to reduce doubt and indecision - all
handballs should be penalised. But nobody wants that do they?
[/quote]
Lineker has said many times he would be in favour. Obviously
without thinking through the consequences
#Post#: 10266--------------------------------------------------
Re: 1st ruled out goal by VAR in PL
DIR By: Maltese Falcon
Date: August 22, 2019, 4:37 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Logically that means then - to reduce doubt and indecision - all
handballs should be penalised. But nobody wants that do they?
[/quote]
Or .... we just go back to accepting the premise that the ball
hitting an arm /hand accidentally, not caused by any deliberate
action, can, on occasion, lead to an advantageous outcome
anywhere on the field, including the scoring / creating of a
goal. Whatever happened to 'rub of the green'?!
#Post#: 10267--------------------------------------------------
Re: 1st ruled out goal by VAR in PL
DIR By: Readingfan
Date: August 22, 2019, 5:07 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Personally I think it's right that goals scored where the ball
hitting the hand has a significant impact are disallowed. Goals
obviously have a significant impact upon the result and I think
it is right that they feel 'clean' and there is no injustice
attached to them.
Whether that should apply to a ball accidentally hitting a
defender's hand in the 6 yard box and preventing a goal I'm not
sure. Of course in the Champions League more defensive handballs
will be penalised than in the PL so it might seem more even.
#Post#: 10269--------------------------------------------------
Re: 1st ruled out goal by VAR in PL
DIR By: Ashington46
Date: August 22, 2019, 5:47 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Readingfan link ---
>
> Personally I think it's right that goals scored where the
ball hitting the hand has a significant impact are disallowed.
Goals obviously have a significant impact upon the result and I
think it is right that they feel 'clean' and there is no
injustice attached to them.
>
> Whether that should apply to a ball accidentally hitting a
defender's hand in the 6 yard box and preventing a goal I'm not
sure. Of course in the Champions League more defensive handballs
will be penalised than in the PL so it might seem more even.
>
--- End Quote ---
I agree that, should the ball hitting the hand have a
significant impact, the goal should be disallowed, however, it
is still all about interpretation and VAR is introducing one or
more opinions to the situation.
The onfield officials had allowed the City goal because they
were happy that no offence had been committed --they were
overruled by VAR, much to the shock and surprise of the players
on the field.
The fact, as we know already, that, in European Competitions and
in Spain more defensive handballs are penalised is more
concerning because the goalposts are being moved as to
interpretation, therefore, there isn't any consistency which is
what the average fan is always crying out for.
Just where is the global game going ----does anybody know?
#Post#: 10270--------------------------------------------------
Re: 1st ruled out goal by VAR in PL
DIR By: Readingfan
Date: August 22, 2019, 6:38 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Presumably the officials didn't give the handball on Saturday at
the time simply because they didn't see it. As has been said, it
isn't really a matter of opinion under the current
interpretation.
#Post#: 10272--------------------------------------------------
Re: 1st ruled out goal by VAR in PL
DIR By: Ashington46
Date: August 22, 2019, 6:48 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Readingfan link ---
>
> Presumably the officials didn't give the handball on Saturday
at the time simply because they didn't see it. As has been said,
it isn't really a matter of opinion under the current
interpretation.
>
--- End Quote ---
Not only the officials, there were over 54000 others at the
match who never saw it either. Perhaps everyone needs to go to
Specsavers ---there are other opticians available :D
#Post#: 10273--------------------------------------------------
Re: 1st ruled out goal by VAR in PL
DIR By: Readingfan
Date: August 22, 2019, 7:18 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Ashington46 link ---
>
> [quote author=Readingfan link=topic=933.msg10270#msg10270
date=1566473899]
> Presumably the officials didn't give the handball on Saturday
at the time simply because they didn't see it. As has been said,
it isn't really a matter of opinion under the current
interpretation.
>
--- End Quote ---
Not only the officials, there were over 54000 others at the
match who never saw it either. Perhaps everyone needs to go to
Specsavers ---there are other opticians available :D
[/quote]
I would argue this is a strength of VAR - think back to the
Martin Skrtel handball in the last minute of Liverpool V Man
City in 2014. Nobody spotted it at the time or appealed. Gary
Neville said in commentary what a great header it was. The
replays then revealed he'd punched it away. If Liverpool hadn't
dropped points after that then they would have gone on to win
the title. Nowadays in the Premier League, VAR would be able to
help the referee out and give them the opportunity to make a
correct decision that they would have had no chance of making in
real time. That's why it seems many of the referees want it!
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