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#Post#: 10153--------------------------------------------------
Re: 1st ruled out goal by VAR in PL
DIR By: bmb
Date: August 19, 2019, 3:13 pm
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--- Quote from: Microscopist link ---
>
> The way VAR is being used is like someone being given the
tools to repair a run down house and concentrating on oiling the
door hinges rather than tackling the damp and dry rot. So
instead of looking for mm offside decisions and near
imperceptible ball to hand contact it should be tackling evening
out standards for penalties and diving.
>
--- End Quote ---
This!!!
#Post#: 10164--------------------------------------------------
Re: 1st ruled out goal by VAR in PL
DIR By: Readingfan
Date: August 19, 2019, 8:35 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
Excellent post kelxref.
I think there are pros and cons to the approach regarding
pitchside monitors and assistants raising offside flags.
On balance, I think I prefer the PL's approach towards
assistants raising the flag. I think sometimes in UEFA/FIFA
competitions the assistants come across as being indecisive
(even though they aren't really) and it is frustrating for
people when it seems a move is being let go when there is
actually a clear offside offence and I think it is often taken
too far in these competitions. I don't really buy the argument
about defenders potentially stopping in the PL. They've all been
briefed to play to the whistle so if they fail to do so then
it's just an individual defensive error as far as I'm concerned,
just as if they fail to mark properly at a corner or switch off
to a quick free-kick. I won't have any sympathy for a team who
concedes a goal due to stopping because of an offside flag and
if it happens once I'm pretty sure it won't happen again!
Overall, I think that raising the flag makes the assistants
actively make decisions and gives a clear visual indication to
everyone of the likely decision.
As for pitchside monitors, I don't think that any decision that
has been changed by VAR so far in the PL would have had a
different outcome if the referee had gone to look at the
monitor. Again, I think this has often been overused abroad,
either with the referee being sent to look at a very marginal
incident which shouldn't have been reviewed in the first place
and they take an age to make a decision or where the decision is
very obvious and reviewing it is not really required. Both waste
time unnecessarily and I don't think really suit the general
speed and tempo of Premier League football.
I think the most important thing is that the on-field referee is
comfortable with the final decision being made so if they want
to look for themselves then they should be permitted to do so
but I think the PL are probably right in their context in
looking to limit this.
Overall, I think that the general standard of officiating in the
PL at the start of the season has generally been pretty good.
The VAR decisions changed so far have been marginal calls that
you could easily understand the officials missing in real-time.
I would guess over time we will see more obvious incorrect
decisions that fall under the real howler category as we have
seen in previous PL seasons.
#Post#: 10166--------------------------------------------------
Re: 1st ruled out goal by VAR in PL
DIR By: Ref Fan
Date: August 20, 2019, 2:39 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Good Morning Microscopist.
Your pleasure is reciprocated despite our partisanship being in
different tribes of the great city of Manchester. My problem
though is that I tend to blame my team for its shortcomings
rather than directing my ire towards the referee and VAR. Last
evening for example, there was I complaining about the length of
time it was taking for United to decide who was going to take
the penalty, and not about the VAR taking almost as long to
conclude the Wolves goal wasn't offside.
Back to your point and the non-penalty award. I think my
wording was "not totally convinced". If a penalty had been
awarded - either by Oliver or VAR - I wouldn't have argued it
was blatantly wrong. I just didn't think it was as nailed on as
many were suggesting. And at this point I must plead age,
deteriorating eyesight and brain (and various other faculties
for that matter) and rest what you may understandably believe is
my feeble case.
#Post#: 10198--------------------------------------------------
Re: 1st ruled out goal by VAR in PL
DIR By: bmb
Date: August 20, 2019, 9:29 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Readingfan link ---
>
> On balance, I think I prefer the PL's approach towards
assistants raising the flag. I think sometimes in UEFA/FIFA
competitions the assistants come across as being indecisive
(even though they aren't really) and it is frustrating for
people when it seems a move is being let go when there is
actually a clear offside offence and I think it is often taken
too far in these competitions. I don't really buy the argument
about defenders potentially stopping in the PL. They've all been
briefed to play to the whistle so if they fail to do so then
it's just an individual defensive error as far as I'm concerned,
just as if they fail to mark properly at a corner or switch off
to a quick free-kick. I won't have any sympathy for a team who
concedes a goal due to stopping because of an offside flag and
if it happens once I'm pretty sure it won't happen again!
>
> Overall, I think that raising the flag makes the assistants
actively make decisions and gives a clear visual indication to
everyone of the likely decision.
>
--- End Quote ---
I agree with this. It stops the stupid punditry comments
regarding late flags as well or at least trims them down a bit.
One comment from pundits I can never resist screaming at the TV
it's not late you idiot, he was waiting to see if in an offside
position actually became offside within the LOTG or words to
that effect! This is something that often makes AR's appear to
be indecisive or late to react/ simply reacting to a shout or
hands raised from a defender because so many
(fans/players/pundits/managers) don't understand the huge
difference between a player being in an offside position and
actually being offside within the criteria of the LOTG.
--- Quote from: Readingfan link ---
>
> I think this has often been overused abroad, either with the
referee being sent to look at a very marginal incident which
shouldn't have been reviewed in the first place and they take an
age to make a decision or where the decision is very obvious and
reviewing it is not really required.
>
--- End Quote ---
Could part of the length of time at times be that they are
trying to find what the VAR ref is going on about? You know
standing there thinking, nope still can't see it...
#Post#: 10203--------------------------------------------------
Re: 1st ruled out goal by VAR in PL
DIR By: kelxref
Date: August 20, 2019, 10:13 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Readingfan link ---
>
> Excellent post kelxref.
>
> I think there are pros and cons to the approach regarding
pitchside monitors and assistants raising offside flags.
>
> On balance, I think I prefer the PL's approach towards
assistants raising the flag. I think sometimes in UEFA/FIFA
competitions the assistants come across as being indecisive
(even though they aren't really) and it is frustrating for
people when it seems a move is being let go when there is
actually a clear offside offence and I think it is often taken
too far in these competitions. I don't really buy the argument
about defenders potentially stopping in the PL. They've all been
briefed to play to the whistle so if they fail to do so then
it's just an individual defensive error as far as I'm concerned,
just as if they fail to mark properly at a corner or switch off
to a quick free-kick. I won't have any sympathy for a team who
concedes a goal due to stopping because of an offside flag and
if it happens once I'm pretty sure it won't happen again!
>
> Overall, I think that raising the flag makes the assistants
actively make decisions and gives a clear visual indication to
everyone of the likely decision.
>
> As for pitchside monitors, I don't think that any decision
that has been changed by VAR so far in the PL would have had a
different outcome if the referee had gone to look at the
monitor. Again, I think this has often been overused abroad,
either with the referee being sent to look at a very marginal
incident which shouldn't have been reviewed in the first place
and they take an age to make a decision or where the decision is
very obvious and reviewing it is not really required. Both waste
time unnecessarily and I don't think really suit the general
speed and tempo of Premier League football.
>
> I think the most important thing is that the on-field referee
is comfortable with the final decision being made so if they
want to look for themselves then they should be permitted to do
so but I think the PL are probably right in their context in
looking to limit this.
>
> Overall, I think that the general standard of officiating in
the PL at the start of the season has generally been pretty
good. The VAR decisions changed so far have been marginal calls
that you could easily understand the officials missing in
real-time. I would guess over time we will see more obvious
incorrect decisions that fall under the real howler category as
we have seen in previous PL seasons.
>
--- End Quote ---
I think you make some very valid points that made me reflect on
my comments. I certainly agree that the "most important thing is
that the on-field referee is comfortable with the final decision
being made" and on that thought, I would like to think they
could make an OFR if they felt it necessary to completely
understand the VAR and "sell" it to the players on the pitch. I
just get the feeling that the EFL are pushing against this and
virtually ruling out OFLs and letting VAR make the decision on
both factual and non-factual decisions, so making speeding up
the game the paramount aim. And whilst I agree that the way VAR
is working in Europe probably uses OFRs too frequently, I think
we might be pushing it to the other extreme. As as aside, I note
from another board that in a Bundesliga game last weekend, a
goal was disallowed for handball based upon VAR input alone. So
other countries may be amending their own protocols as they gain
more experience on how VAR is working.
On the "when to flag for offside" issue, I agree that the method
adopted by the EFL makes the assistant make a call and not tend
to use VAR like the old lamppost analogy i.e. to lean on rather
than light the way. However, following my example at Chelsea on
Sunday, I think it will still need the first overruled offside
flag and the protests that are likely to follow, to ram home the
point of "playing to the whistle"!
These are early days for VAR in the EFL and as it has in
Germany, Italy, Spain and France, it will take time for all
sections of the game to get used to it. I agree in the first two
weeks of the season the officials have been generally good, and
the major controversies are more to do with a law change rather
than VAR.
#Post#: 10226--------------------------------------------------
Re: 1st ruled out goal by VAR in PL
DIR By: Readingfan
Date: August 20, 2019, 5:41 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
Interview with Neil Swarbrick from about 2.40 here -
HTML https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m0007r4m
#Post#: 10232--------------------------------------------------
Re: 1st ruled out goal by VAR in PL
DIR By: Ivanhoe
Date: August 21, 2019, 3:45 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Surely the new handball rule is ridiculous as it is the only law
in football that gives you two possible outcomes.
Example
A shot hits a defender on the arm from short distance with his
arm by his sidein the penalty area, no offence committed, the
defender hoofs the ball down the pitch, a striker latches onto
it and chips the opposing goalkeeper for a goal.
Under the new rule the goal should be disallowed and a free kick
given for handball, presumably a penalty.
Can anyone disprove this for me ?
#Post#: 10233--------------------------------------------------
Re: 1st ruled out goal by VAR in PL
DIR By: Beancounter
Date: August 21, 2019, 4:08 am
---------------------------------------------------------
re Ivanhoe - I don't think it's the only one with 2 possible
outcomes. Take the famous beachball incident at Sunderland a few
years ago. Now if the ball hits the beachball in the penalty
area it is an uncontested drop ball to the goalkeeper, if
contact with the beachball is outside the penalty area then it
is an uncontested drop ball to the attacking side!
#Post#: 10234--------------------------------------------------
Re: 1st ruled out goal by VAR in PL
DIR By: Readingfan
Date: August 21, 2019, 5:12 am
---------------------------------------------------------
It seems unlikely to me that a penalty would be required because
the defender presumably wouldn't count as an attacking player at
that point, although granted I don't think it's clear at what
point a handball by a member of the scoring team is penalised.
#Post#: 10237--------------------------------------------------
Re: 1st ruled out goal by VAR in PL
DIR By: Ashington46
Date: August 21, 2019, 7:00 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Readingfan link ---
>
> It seems unlikely to me that a penalty would be required
because the defender presumably wouldn't count as an attacking
player at that point, although granted I don't think it's clear
at what point a handball by a member of the scoring team is
penalised.
>
--- End Quote ---
Imagine the scenario in the last game of the season between
Arsenal and Spurs. Arsenal need 3 points to be sure of staying
up and Spurs need 3 points to become League Champions for the
first time since 1960/61. The match is in added time and the
defender is an Arsenal player who does exactly as described.
This means that Arsenal score and win the game 1-0 and thus
avoid relegation, meanwhile, Spurs are pipped at the post and
are not Champions.
Meanwhile a peaceful night ensues in North London.
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