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#Post#: 9992--------------------------------------------------
Re: 1st ruled out goal by VAR in PL
DIR By: Microscopist
Date: August 15, 2019, 4:01 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
Just an aside about whether there is any subjectivity in VAR
offside decisions, and apart from all the uncertainties I have
raised earlier, is the dividing line between shoulder and arm
decided subjectively?
#Post#: 9994--------------------------------------------------
Re: 1st ruled out goal by VAR in PL
DIR By: Ashington46
Date: August 15, 2019, 4:24 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Microscopist link ---
>
> Just an aside about whether there is any subjectivity in VAR
offside decisions, and apart from all the uncertainties I have
raised earlier, is the dividing line between shoulder and arm
decided subjectively?
>
--- End Quote ---
Only if the arm is in a natural position ;D ------ sorry I
coudn't resist!
#Post#: 10020--------------------------------------------------
Re: 1st ruled out goal by VAR in PL
DIR By: Microscopist
Date: August 16, 2019, 4:51 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Ashington46 link ---
>
> [quote author=Microscopist link=topic=933.msg9992#msg9992
date=1565902873]
> Just an aside about whether there is any subjectivity in VAR
offside decisions, and apart from all the uncertainties I have
raised earlier, is the dividing line between shoulder and arm
decided subjectively?
>
--- End Quote ---
Only if the arm is in a natural position ;D ------ sorry I
coudn't resist!
[/quote]
A very profound insight - I think that all footballers likely to
be involved in VAR decisions should have x-ray tomography 3D
reconstructions of their shoulders with the arm in different
positions which could then be superimposed on offside images to
determine exactly where the arm/shoulder division was located.
That way we could get mm accuracy, at least in terms of anatomy.
With practice it shouldn't take more than about 15 minutes to
get a decision. Of course there would need to legislation
outlawing footballers from having surgery to reduce the socket
in the joint and having the bone replaced with X-ray transparent
material in order to gain valuable mm on their opponents.
#Post#: 10022--------------------------------------------------
Re: 1st ruled out goal by VAR in PL
DIR By: bmb
Date: August 16, 2019, 6:27 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Microscopist link ---
>
> [quote author=Ashington46 link=topic=933.msg9994#msg9994
date=1565904289]
> [quote author=Microscopist link=topic=933.msg9992#msg9992
date=1565902873]
> Just an aside about whether there is any subjectivity in VAR
offside decisions, and apart from all the uncertainties I have
raised earlier, is the dividing line between shoulder and arm
decided subjectively?
>
--- End Quote ---
Only if the arm is in a natural position ;D ------ sorry I
coudn't resist!
[/quote]
A very profound insight - I think that all footballers likely to
be involved in VAR decisions should have x-ray tomography 3D
reconstructions of their shoulders with the arm in different
positions which could then be superimposed on offside images to
determine exactly where the arm/shoulder division was located.
That way we could get mm accuracy, at least in terms of anatomy.
With practice it shouldn't take more than about 15 minutes to
get a decision. Of course there would need to legislation
outlawing footballers from having surgery to reduce the socket
in the joint and having the bone replaced with X-ray transparent
material in order to gain valuable mm on their opponents.
[/quote]
Don't give the Ivory Towers such ideas, please!
#Post#: 10025--------------------------------------------------
Re: 1st ruled out goal by VAR in PL
DIR By: Ashington46
Date: August 17, 2019, 3:12 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: bmb link ---
>
> [quote author=Microscopist link=topic=933.msg10020#msg10020
date=1565992274]
> [quote author=Ashington46 link=topic=933.msg9994#msg9994
date=1565904289]
> [quote author=Microscopist link=topic=933.msg9992#msg9992
date=1565902873]
> Just an aside about whether there is any subjectivity in VAR
offside decisions, and apart from all the uncertainties I have
raised earlier, is the dividing line between shoulder and arm
decided subjectively?
>
--- End Quote ---
Only if the arm is in a natural position ;D ------ sorry I
coudn't resist!
[/quote]
A very profound insight - I think that all footballers likely to
be involved in VAR decisions should have x-ray tomography 3D
reconstructions of their shoulders with the arm in different
positions which could then be superimposed on offside images to
determine exactly where the arm/shoulder division was located.
That way we could get mm accuracy, at least in terms of anatomy.
With practice it shouldn't take more than about 15 minutes to
get a decision. Of course there would need to legislation
outlawing footballers from having surgery to reduce the socket
in the joint and having the bone replaced with X-ray transparent
material in order to gain valuable mm on their opponents.
[/quote]
Don't give the Ivory Towers such ideas, please!
[/quote]
The answer to this obviously revolves around the fact that all
outfield players should have their arms strapped to their side,
thus giving them the appearance of Subbuteo players, in order
that the arm is in a 'natural' position.
I suppose that their shoulder could still be in an offside
position, however, it would surely mean that a dubious penalty
for handball would not be given.
In addition, it would be so funny watching players jumping to
head the ball and also getting up when they had fallen over,
mind you, it wouldn't surprise me if they banned heading before
long.
I do like progression, however, it is difficult to see how the
recent changes are helping the game.
#Post#: 10043--------------------------------------------------
Re: 1st ruled out goal by VAR in PL
DIR By: RCG
Date: August 18, 2019, 4:50 am
---------------------------------------------------------
With regard to the new (ridiculous) handball interpretation a
simple tweak is needed
Add in the phrase "If the player who scores..."
The touch off the Man City player yesterday, although it went to
a colleague, Jesus still had to control.the ball, come back
inside the defender and shoot.
Surprisingly inciteful punditry on MOTD about it is unfair to
penalise attacking teams for a handball you would not give
against the defender
The law was changed to prevent goals being scored off arms when
the on field officials could not see (ireland being one i
remember)
The handball law coupled with offside is reducing the number of
goals, not increasing them
#Post#: 10047--------------------------------------------------
Re: 1st ruled out goal by VAR in PL
DIR By: LateTackle
Date: August 18, 2019, 7:24 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: RCG link ---
>
> With regard to the new (ridiculous) handball interpretation a
simple tweak is needed
> Add in the phrase "If the player who scores..."
> The touch off the Man City player yesterday, although it went
to a colleague, Jesus still had to control.the ball, come back
inside the defender and shoot.
> Surprisingly inciteful punditry on MOTD about it is unfair to
penalise attacking teams for a handball you would not give
against the defender
> The law was changed to prevent goals being scored off arms
when the on field officials could not see (ireland being one i
remember)
> The handball law coupled with offside is reducing the number
of goals, not increasing them
>
--- End Quote ---
I absolutely agree. The ludicrous new interpretation and the
seeming insistence of the powers-that-be to have the game
refereed by VAR led to a complete injustice last night. I'm
sure it's not the first time. The handball that was penalised
was clearly accidental, aggravated by the fact that the player
was having his shirt grabbed by a defender. So even if the goal
was disallowed, a penalty should have been awarded instead.
I cannot believe the intention of the tinkering was to create a
bigger mess than before, but this is what invariably happens,
as with offside. Oliver simply pointed to his ear to blame the
VAR official, so why did he not review it himself? He is our
best referee but this did him no favours. Had he reviewed the
whole scene he may have decided to simply allow the goal.
I have been, on balance, in favour of VAR but this type of
uncertainty does it no favours and I get the impression that
public opinion is strengthening against it..
#Post#: 10049--------------------------------------------------
Re: 1st ruled out goal by VAR in PL
DIR By: Ashington46
Date: August 18, 2019, 8:00 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: LateTackle link ---
>
> [quote author=RCG link=topic=933.msg10043#msg10043
date=1566121844]
> With regard to the new (ridiculous) handball interpretation a
simple tweak is needed
> Add in the phrase "If the player who scores..."
> The touch off the Man City player yesterday, although it went
to a colleague, Jesus still had to control.the ball, come back
inside the defender and shoot.
> Surprisingly inciteful punditry on MOTD about it is unfair to
penalise attacking teams for a handball you would not give
against the defender
> The law was changed to prevent goals being scored off arms
when the on field officials could not see (ireland being one i
remember)
> The handball law coupled with offside is reducing the number
of goals, not increasing them
>
--- End Quote ---
I absolutely agree. The ludicrous new interpretation and the
seeming insistence of the powers-that-be to have the game
refereed by VAR led to a complete injustice last night. I'm
sure it's not the first time. The handball that was penalised
was clearly accidental, aggravated by the fact that the player
was having his shirt grabbed by a defender. So even if the goal
was disallowed, a penalty should have been awarded instead.
I cannot believe the intention of the tinkering was to create a
bigger mess than before, but this is what invariably happens,
as with offside. Oliver simply pointed to his ear to blame the
VAR official, so why did he not review it himself? He is our
best referee but this did him no favours. Had he reviewed the
whole scene he may have decided to simply allow the goal.
I have been, on balance, in favour of VAR but this type of
uncertainty does it no favours and I get the impression that
public opinion is strengthening against it..
[/quote]
There was no point in the referee reviewing it because they have
changed the Law and it hit an attackers hand and resulted in a
goal! Crazy in the extreme, however, a correct decision as far
as TLOG is concerned.
It doesn't matter what the public opinion is because it is here
to stay. VAR is sanctioned by FIFA and UEFA and is being used
more and more in other countries because they see it as ridding
the game of mistakes made by officials.
The PL are using their own version of it because there have been
a few instances of defending players handling the ball which
would have been given as handball in European competitions but
were not seen to be deliberate in the PL.
It is no good moaning about any decisions because it is what the
media wants, however, I don't think that it is doing anything to
enhance what once was a pleasure in watching football.
#Post#: 10056--------------------------------------------------
Re: 1st ruled out goal by VAR in PL
DIR By: Readingfan
Date: August 18, 2019, 9:26 am
---------------------------------------------------------
I’ve no problem with the goal yesterday being disallowed. Ball
travelled a long way before being flicked on by the hand and
giving a significant advantage. No way would Oliver have allowed
goal if reviewing it for himself. I think this is strength of
VAR, detecting something practically impossible to spot in real
time.
Whilst the wording is new, I believe PL clubs agreed this
interpretation in 2016 and Mike Riley said over the summer that
the handball interpretation would be unchanged from last few
seasons.
#Post#: 10067--------------------------------------------------
Re: 1st ruled out goal by VAR in PL
DIR By: LateTackle
Date: August 18, 2019, 10:52 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Readingfan link ---
>
> I’ve no problem with the goal yesterday being disallowed. Ball
travelled a long way before being flicked on by the hand and
giving a significant advantage. No way would Oliver have allowed
goal if reviewing it for himself. I think this is strength of
VAR, detecting something practically impossible to spot in real
time.
>
> Whilst the wording is new, I believe PL clubs agreed this
interpretation in 2016 and Mike Riley said over the summer that
the handball interpretation would be unchanged from last few
seasons.
>
--- End Quote ---
I absolutely disagree regarding Oliver looking at the replay.
Had he done so, you would hope he'd have spotted the shirt pull
on the player whose hand it hit. He was fouled before an
accidental handball. Yes, he could have disallowed the goal,
but could have then correctly awarded a penalty. The whole
thing has become farcical. I also feel that VAR should have
spotted the original offence, so it doesn't say much for them.
Poor all round.
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