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#Post#: 108042--------------------------------------------------
DEI
DIR By: EXEFLAR
Date: June 28, 2026, 3:23 pm
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Thank you to everyone who has accepted my somewhat controversial
comments…I am very pleased that there has been a balanced view
to my opinion.
To answer a question that I was challenged with…the reason I
think it would be a Male team that was denied.
Is that looking at stats in World Cup/europe…there would be a
0.002% chance of that happening..that means …2 in one
thousand…so…unless you are trying to promote
diversity…impossible.
This is not to say there are not very capable female
officials…far from it…I have been involved with great girls in
high level games.
However
I have also had chats with them privately and they are superbly
honest that they are only there due to DAI.
And I am only recently off FL.
I know this is hugely controversial …but if you are a true chat
room I’d like you to challenge me.
Or
If you feel…agree..disagree
I will also give some evidence of being a Lino to 2 x FL female
referees.
They were both wonderful people…however both privately admitted
to me they shouldn’t be at that level having been promoted on
finishing 13/19 on tables.
That means someone (probably male sorry)has been denied a true
promotion due to DAI.
Even though they were very fit they were constantly behind play
because genetically they are not as quick as men…however,,they
had an amazing ability to calm a situation..
But I always felt I had to referee more as a Lino due to
fitness…or should I just say natural human speed…players
privately told me they felt it very awkward having a female
referee ….make if that what you will…I will give you my opinion
if you want publicly or privately.
I hope the contributors will respect this discussion…perhaps not
standard…but open a debate that perhaps many have considered
without the bravery to say.
I also hope the admin will respect this is a matter worthy of
honest debate from all angles.
To finish…my only point is…promotion during my time was not
solely based on talent…something which makes me upset every
single day.
#Post#: 108046--------------------------------------------------
Re: DEI
DIR By: aaa
Date: June 28, 2026, 4:05 pm
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I'm kind of lost where this discussion was about. Is your title
meant to be "DEI initiatives (Diversity, Equity, and
Inclusion)"?
Edited - I just noticed that you posted under "Ecuador
🇪🇨 v Germany 🇩🇪 - Tori Penso
(USA)"
I have read the discussion and I cannot see anyone challenging
you. Your knowledge and experience are yours. No one will
argue against it. Also, no one would argue against what your
"private" words with regards to the two females referees.
Yes, this is a forum to have a respectful discussion but this is
not a forum to challenge anyone.
#Post#: 108076--------------------------------------------------
Re: DEI
DIR By: Leggy
Date: June 29, 2026, 1:12 pm
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I have no idea what this is all about, but - as a matter of
maths - 0.002% is 2 in one-hundred thousand (100,000).
#Post#: 108083--------------------------------------------------
Re: DEI
DIR By: Affy_Moose
Date: June 29, 2026, 3:59 pm
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I'm not really sure why we're going here. The World Cup for
officials isn't a huge pyramid of meritocracy, any more than it
is for players. That's why Cape Verde, or Haiti are at the
World Cup and yet Italy and Poland are not. That's why the 27th
best Brazilian, Spaniard, Englishman or German isn't here, but
26 weaker Kiwis are.
Many fantastic officials don't get a FIFA badge because of age,
fortune, and timing. Many brilliant FIFA officials don't make
it to elite, or do but their timing of performances doesn't
coincide with the World Cup. Others may be the absolute elite,
but they happen to be the third best in their country.
So long as you apply arbitrary qualification conditions and
barriers, then a choice has to be made somewhere. This isn't a
novel observation. The World Cup has the very best officials in
the world, but it certainly doesn't have the 52 best. Until a
single confederation or country can send them all (if quality
should determine so) then we'll end up with choices being made,
and limitations applied.
The World Cup is there to provide a wider platform for
opportunity, and it does that.
#Post#: 108086--------------------------------------------------
Re: DEI
DIR By: Lanyardhater
Date: June 29, 2026, 4:40 pm
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I’m glad it wasn’t just me that didn’t understand a word of all
this!
#Post#: 108109--------------------------------------------------
Re: DEI
DIR By: bmb
Date: June 30, 2026, 5:17 am
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--- Quote from: EXEFLAR link ---
>
> To finish…my only point is…promotion during my time was not
solely based on talent…something which makes me upset every
single day.
>
--- End Quote ---
Promotion never has been based on talent alone. Since time began
it has always elements of it's not what you know but who you
know, the right schools, the right county FA, the right
job/role, being related to the right person, the right skin
colour, the right sex and whatever other factors have played a
part. Sure you have to have a high level of talent to be able to
carry it off but it hasn't always meant the most talented are
the ones who got promoted. On the flipside some/most who have
been promoted who also fall into one of the additional factors
have done so because they are good enough for the next level.
Was Farai Hallam tearing up the Premier League last season
simply a EDI tick box exercise or because he's an outstanding
referee?
#Post#: 108118--------------------------------------------------
Re: DEI
DIR By: DublinRef
Date: June 30, 2026, 7:29 am
---------------------------------------------------------
I, for one, think this is a legitimate point for debate,
although I confess I’m not completely clear that I have a
coherent understanding of the original poster’s point with
respect to the female officials at the World Cup and beyond.
DEI, whether one agrees with it or not, does involve an element
of moving away from a purely merit-based appointment system. I’m
not saying that this is necessarily wrong, but I do think it is
clearly part of the process.
To me, DEI has a two-step function. The first is to improve
opportunities for officials from historically underrepresented
groups and ensure that they have the same opportunity to reach
the highest level as everyone else. I think most people can
agree with that objective, and I struggle to see how it is
particularly controversial.
The second step, however, is the promotion of officials from
historically underrepresented groups through pathways that may
differ from the traditional route, sometimes ahead of officials
who have greater experience or, perhaps, greater ability. Again,
I do not think this is inherently wrong.
As others have pointed out, selection for an event like the
World Cup is hardly a pure meritocracy. Political considerations
come into play, as do preferences for particular refereeing
styles, geographical representation, and even where an official
happens to be in their career. Merit has never been the only
consideration.
I actually think that an event like the World Cup is where DEI
or EDI is both at its most important and its most vulnerable. Of
course we want the very best officials, without compromising
standards. However, I also think it is legitimate to want to
promote officials from historically underrepresented groups
because the World Cup is a global platform. It sends the message
that refereeing is for everyone. By broadening the pool of
people who see refereeing as attainable and worthwhile, we
should ultimately produce a stronger overall cohort of referees
from which to select.
That said, I completely understand why individuals can become
frustrated when colleagues are promoted ahead of them despite
having less experience or lower observer rankings. I have seen
this happen, and I understand why it can feel unfair.
Ultimately, there is a balance to be struck between absolute
meritocracy (which, in reality, does not exist anyway) and
promoting values that are important to football and to sport
more broadly.
Taking Tori Penso as an example, I find it difficult to argue
that she is not of World Cup standard. I simply do not find that
argument persuasive. I think there are referees who were not
selected who are better officials than she is. Equally, I think
there are officials at the World Cup who have performed worse
than she has. To me, she sits comfortably somewhere in the lower
half of the officials selected, but still within the standard
required.
One might argue that her pathway to becoming a World Cup referee
was less arduous than that of some others, and perhaps she has
benefited to some extent from initiatives aimed at increasing
female representation. In her particular case, however, I think
she has more than the requisite experience to justify her
appointment.
So I suppose my overall point is this. While I understand
individual frustrations, and while I think these policies must
be implemented carefully so that people are not promoted beyond
their capabilities simply because they belong to an
underrepresented group, we must be even more careful not to
exclude people, on a broader scale, from participating because
of that same background.
On balance, I think the objective of making football, and sport
more generally, genuinely open to everyone outweighs the pursuit
of a purely merit-based system.
Accordingly, while I understand some of the concerns, I think
DEI-type policies are beneficial provided they are implemented
carefully. Those involved should have their expectations managed
appropriately and should not be promoted too quickly, as that
can be damaging both to their own development and to the morale
of those around them. There should also be a clear understanding
that diversity is simply one of many factors considered by
referee appointing bodies, alongside numerous others that are
not themselves purely meritocratic.
From that perspective, I cannot particularly object to the
appointment of any of the female officials at this World Cup,
nor to the appointment of the female or other historically
underrepresented officials who have reached the Premier League
in recent years, with perhaps one exception, whom I will not
name because I do not think it would be fair to single out an
individual.
In my view, all of those officials have met the standard
required for the Premier League. While individual concerns about
fairness may well be justified, I do not think that the overall
programme is fundamentally flawed.
What I would say, however, is that there must always be
objective standards that cannot be compromised, and I am not
suggesting for a moment that they currently are. Officials who
clearly lack the ability to referee at the highest level should
not receive major appointments, regardless of their background.
Equally, fitness standards should be identical for everyone.
Provided that those high standards are maintained, I do think
there is value in a system that seeks not only to appoint the
best officials but also to ensure that those officials represent
the diversity of the football community. Ultimately, the more
people who are encouraged to participate in refereeing, the
larger the talent pool becomes, and the higher the standard of
officiating is likely to be in the long term.
#Post#: 108161--------------------------------------------------
Re: DEI
DIR By: ajb95
Date: July 1, 2026, 7:35 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: DublinRef link ---
>
> I, for one, think this is a legitimate point for debate,
although I confess I’m not completely clear that I have a
coherent understanding of the original poster’s point with
respect to the female officials at the World Cup and beyond.
>
> DEI, whether one agrees with it or not, does involve an
element of moving away from a purely merit-based appointment
system. I’m not saying that this is necessarily wrong, but I do
think it is clearly part of the process.
>
> To me, DEI has a two-step function. The first is to improve
opportunities for officials from historically underrepresented
groups and ensure that they have the same opportunity to reach
the highest level as everyone else. I think most people can
agree with that objective, and I struggle to see how it is
particularly controversial.
>
> The second step, however, is the promotion of officials from
historically underrepresented groups through pathways that may
differ from the traditional route, sometimes ahead of officials
who have greater experience or, perhaps, greater ability. Again,
I do not think this is inherently wrong.
>
> As others have pointed out, selection for an event like the
World Cup is hardly a pure meritocracy. Political considerations
come into play, as do preferences for particular refereeing
styles, geographical representation, and even where an official
happens to be in their career. Merit has never been the only
consideration.
>
> I actually think that an event like the World Cup is where DEI
or EDI is both at its most important and its most vulnerable. Of
course we want the very best officials, without compromising
standards. However, I also think it is legitimate to want to
promote officials from historically underrepresented groups
because the World Cup is a global platform. It sends the message
that refereeing is for everyone. By broadening the pool of
people who see refereeing as attainable and worthwhile, we
should ultimately produce a stronger overall cohort of referees
from which to select.
>
> That said, I completely understand why individuals can become
frustrated when colleagues are promoted ahead of them despite
having less experience or lower observer rankings. I have seen
this happen, and I understand why it can feel unfair.
>
> Ultimately, there is a balance to be struck between absolute
meritocracy (which, in reality, does not exist anyway) and
promoting values that are important to football and to sport
more broadly.
>
> Taking Tori Penso as an example, I find it difficult to argue
that she is not of World Cup standard. I simply do not find that
argument persuasive. I think there are referees who were not
selected who are better officials than she is. Equally, I think
there are officials at the World Cup who have performed worse
than she has. To me, she sits comfortably somewhere in the lower
half of the officials selected, but still within the standard
required.
>
> One might argue that her pathway to becoming a World Cup
referee was less arduous than that of some others, and perhaps
she has benefited to some extent from initiatives aimed at
increasing female representation. In her particular case,
however, I think she has more than the requisite experience to
justify her appointment.
>
> So I suppose my overall point is this. While I understand
individual frustrations, and while I think these policies must
be implemented carefully so that people are not promoted beyond
their capabilities simply because they belong to an
underrepresented group, we must be even more careful not to
exclude people, on a broader scale, from participating because
of that same background.
>
> On balance, I think the objective of making football, and
sport more generally, genuinely open to everyone outweighs the
pursuit of a purely merit-based system.
>
> Accordingly, while I understand some of the concerns, I think
DEI-type policies are beneficial provided they are implemented
carefully. Those involved should have their expectations managed
appropriately and should not be promoted too quickly, as that
can be damaging both to their own development and to the morale
of those around them. There should also be a clear understanding
that diversity is simply one of many factors considered by
referee appointing bodies, alongside numerous others that are
not themselves purely meritocratic.
>
> From that perspective, I cannot particularly object to the
appointment of any of the female officials at this World Cup,
nor to the appointment of the female or other historically
underrepresented officials who have reached the Premier League
in recent years, with perhaps one exception, whom I will not
name because I do not think it would be fair to single out an
individual.
>
> In my view, all of those officials have met the standard
required for the Premier League. While individual concerns about
fairness may well be justified, I do not think that the overall
programme is fundamentally flawed.
>
> What I would say, however, is that there must always be
objective standards that cannot be compromised, and I am not
suggesting for a moment that they currently are. Officials who
clearly lack the ability to referee at the highest level should
not receive major appointments, regardless of their background.
Equally, fitness standards should be identical for everyone.
>
> Provided that those high standards are maintained, I do think
there is value in a system that seeks not only to appoint the
best officials but also to ensure that those officials represent
the diversity of the football community. Ultimately, the more
people who are encouraged to participate in refereeing, the
larger the talent pool becomes, and the higher the standard of
officiating is likely to be in the long term.
>
--- End Quote ---
Some excellent points here. I would like to challenge your
second point and why you think you dont think this is wrong
-"The second step, however, is the promotion of officials from
historically underrepresented groups through pathways that may
differ from the traditional route, sometimes ahead of officials
who have greater experience or, perhaps, greater ability. Again,
I do not think this is inherently wrong."
DEI for me is to make the criteria and pathways, conditions etc.
an absolute meritocracy so everyone starts from the same equal
opportunity standpoint. What happens after that should be down
to those individuals themselves.
Obviously, this is open to bias (based on someone's experiences,
contact, history, own views etc. which cannot be
ignored/overcome), but should be limited if being performed
correctly.
Should never be a point where someone is something above someone
else other than they are the best. (i remember when I was a
level 4, the guy who finished 1st in the merit table [and had
finished in the top 3 three years running] wasnt promoted due to
his age in favour of younger referees who had finished lower in
the merit table). That to me is blatantly wrong!
#Post#: 108163--------------------------------------------------
Re: DEI
DIR By: Blind Referee
Date: July 1, 2026, 8:04 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: bmb link ---
> Was Farai Hallam tearing up the Premier League last season
simply a EDI tick box exercise or because he's an outstanding
referee?
--- End Quote ---
Or did Farai get his chance because of his colour ? Remember the
“experiments” with Sam Allison and the fella Singh ( can’t
remember his first name ) - very clear now that they were pushed
and given their chance because of their colour - both have
dropped off the radar simply because they weren’t good enough -
how many none DEI could have ‘teared up the Prem League” if they
had been given an equal chance and opportunity?
EDIT: Just fixed up the quote for you.
#Post#: 108207--------------------------------------------------
Re: DEI
DIR By: Whistleblower
Date: July 1, 2026, 5:38 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
It seems to me to be completely self defeating and unjust to
have a Merit Table and not use positions in it as a criterion
for promotion. However, it depends on what the significance of a
Merit Table is and for what specific purpose it was set up. It
may be solely for financial bonuses while other criteria for
promotion are employed.
You may level the charge of cynicism at me but my personal
experience of Merit Tables ( not in the football world ) is that
they can be manipulated. When I was asked to assess someone and
give a merit mark, it was sometimes accompanied by the
instruction to "help this person on their career path". Of
course I did no such thing and for assessment to be effective
you usually need more than one assessor so as to counter
personal likes/dislikes or unconscious bias. I have seen
excellent young practitioners be overlooked, sometimes
apparently quite deliberately and run of the mill practitioners
elevated. Face fitting still goes on and I don't think the most
robust systems in the world can ever eliminate it.
Interviews using a grid system to mark suitability and
conformity to job descriptions are particularly open to abuse.
People simply mark up the candidate they wish to see appointed.
Perhaps the fairest way after all is to put names in a hat and
draw one out, providing each name is only put once into the hat
!
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