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#Post#: 105648--------------------------------------------------
Re: Chris Kavanagh - West Ham vs Arsenal
DIR By: Microscopist
Date: May 11, 2026, 12:51 am
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--- Quote from: TheThingFromLewes link ---
>
> [quote author=TA_Ref link=topic=8015.msg105585#msg105585
date=1778434719]
> Listen, you can talk about length of time, clear and obvious
and all of that stuff.
>
> But, that was a colossal moment. Perhaps the biggest moment of
the season. Darren England is well within his right to study
everything and take his time over the decision. As is Chris
Kavanagh while he is at the screen.
>
> There’s no way on earth that Kavanagh could’ve seen the action
of Pablo on Raya which in my opinion, makes referees call
virtually irrelevant. I believe that it is a foul. It is not
side to side contact. The arm is across the chest clearly
impacting the goalkeepers ability to play the ball.
>
> All I would say is you have to give credit to Darren England
and Chris Kavanagh (and Akil Howson in AVAR) because I think
they realised the magnitude of the moment and took their time to
ensure they came to the correct decision so well done to all the
officials in that moment.
>
--- End Quote ---
I wholeheartedly agree with this post. This decision would have
HUGE consequences not only for both sides, but Spurs and the
others at the bottom, and Man City too.
It had to be looked at with a microscope. There would have been
absolute hell on earth had something like that taken a minuscule
period of time to look at and form a conclusion on.
I appreciate that sometimes VAR takes too long, but there was so
much going on in the box it has to take time to be thorough.
Darren England would be very familiar with rushing a decision
and making a total hash of it, and the consequences of that, as
we all remember well at Spurs. The fallout from that was very
ferocious.
[/quote]
The trouble with looking at things with a microscope is that you
only see a small area at a time and if you want to get a more
accurate view of the whole you have to similarly examine more
areas. One of my microscopically ignorant bosses once told me
that “Any fool can look down a microscope” to which I replied
“The trouble with letting fools look down microscopes is that
they tend to come to foolish conclusions”. My statement was
proved true a few weeks later when one of his staff who had been
allocated by him to ‘assist’ with part of the microscopy process
did indeed do something rather foolish.
I would say that the same problem applies to VAR, you need
rather more skilled and astute folk using VAR. It requires an
additional skill set to on field refereeing and should be
carried out by a completely separate and accredited organisation
from the PGMOL.
#Post#: 105650--------------------------------------------------
Re: Chris Kavanagh - West Ham vs Arsenal
DIR By: RCG
Date: May 11, 2026, 1:46 am
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If it wasn't likely to cost me my job and slow the game down a
bit more, I would draw all potential SFP to the referee and get
them to look at it. Not always to change their minds but to make
sure they have seen all the angles.
Cases recently where not even a YC was issued but being checked
for SFP - surely the ref picks up in that discussion that they
have missed something?
There has been a desire on here to see an independent body take
charge of VAR and although he is still a referee but not on SG,
interesting that Paul Howard has emerged as one of the best.
Likewise the trust in some of the ARs. (Stuart Terhege is one of
the better TMOs in rugby and he was a touch judge/assistant
referee. Worked a lot with Wayne Barnes)
#Post#: 105655--------------------------------------------------
Re: Chris Kavanagh - West Ham vs Arsenal
DIR By: Marvin Grapevine
Date: May 11, 2026, 3:37 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Do we think the fallout of this might have some impact on the
future of VAR in the PL?
I know 19 clubs voted to keep it (a significant error IMO), but
this one decision has highlighted how capricious, impactful and
inconsistent VAR is, and will likely decide both the title and
relegation.
My hope is that this is the nadir and we get rid of VAR for all
subjective decisions and keep it for matters of fact only
(goalline tech and offside positions).
The more I watch the replay, the more I see fouls by Arsenal
players, which absolutely started before the foul on Raya. And
that's before we get to the various incidents where much
stronger challenges on goalkeepers have been allowed.
This decision has shone a light on the fundamental issues with
VAR that many have tried to ignore, and for that at least it is
a good thing.
#Post#: 105656--------------------------------------------------
Re: Chris Kavanagh - West Ham vs Arsenal
DIR By: ajb95
Date: May 11, 2026, 3:57 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Adam link ---
>
> [quote author=TA_Ref link=topic=8015.msg105640#msg105640
date=1778450797]
> For anyone that missed Match of the Day, Darren Cann was a
guest on the programme this evening to help explain the VAR
process, rationale of making the right decision, and discussing
the other incidents occurring inside the box as well.
>
> He also explained his idea to stop all the nonsense happening
from set pieces which has already been mentioned on the thread.
>
> I can’t attach the segment but it’s worth a listen if you
haven’t watched it.
>
--- End Quote ---
On this issue and canns solution is completely useless. Doesn’t
deal with the issue and you’d just have pulling and pushing
happening outside the box. Simple solution is to Encourage
referees to take a hard line approach. If that means 8 penalties
per game or 6 goals disallowed then so be it. Players would soon
learn
I could listen to Darren Cann all day. He always gives great
insight whenever hes on BBC and he comes across as well as the
most lovely person. He came across really well in particular
tonight so id echo what you said and say anyone who hasn't heard
him give it a watch.
[/quote]
#Post#: 105657--------------------------------------------------
Re: Chris Kavanagh - West Ham vs Arsenal
DIR By: Ref Fan
Date: May 11, 2026, 4:18 am
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No wonder I was confused initially - I was looking for a foul by
the West Ham GK, not by Pablo!! A senior moment again.
That said, I'm still doubtful about the chronological order of
the impact of the 'fouls' by the Arsenal players. Did Pablo's
interference with Raya's movement really come first?
An interesting point that came up on RefWatch was why wasn't
another angle available and shown of the bad challenge by the
Celtic player in the old firm game until half time? Am I right
in thinking it's the VAR who has to request different angles
from the Operator, or does VAR just work with the footage he is
shown. If VAR has the different angles, presumably the on field
referee can insist he sees them all and not just the one he is
shown initially, as well as slow-mo.
#Post#: 105661--------------------------------------------------
Re: Chris Kavanagh - West Ham vs Arsenal
DIR By: Claretman
Date: May 11, 2026, 5:30 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: bruntyboy link ---
>
> [quote author=dtrv2 link=topic=8015.msg105613#msg105613
date=1778438400]
> Totally agree with everything TA_Ref has said. It's a clear
foul - in fact two clear fouls - on Raya, so a free kick had to
be given. The ball has dropped right where he's about to catch
it. Yes, there was a foul on an Arsenal player at the front
post, a foul by Trossard and Rice way off the ball, but as we've
seen (and heard from Webb) this season, they're not going to
give those fouls that would have no impact on the actual play.
>
> As for the time, seeing the replays, you don't need to watch
it 17 times to see it's two clear fouls, but given the magnitude
of the decision at both the top and bottom, I can fully
understand the willingness to take their time and not rush.
Unfortunately, as we can see in this thread, it does give some
people the ammunition to argue that the time and number of
replays means it's not clear and obvious, which is clearly was.
Also, the whole 'referees call' is irrelevant here given
Kavanagh had absolutely no ability to see the shirt pull or arm.
Possibly Hussin could have helped but in a crowded area, it'd be
very difficult to see. So with no on field call, that will have
opened up the opportunity for VAR to come in.
>
> What I will say, is I do have sympathy with those who complain
about other incidents where VAR has stayed out (and no, they
haven't just happened in Arsenal matches...!). However, a) two
wrongs don't make a right, and b) in a number of those, the
referee will have seen those and judged there to be no foul,
reducing the VAR's ability to intervene, so arguably not really
comparing apples with apples.
>
> Anyway, outside of that big decision, thought Kavanagh did ok.
Missed a few very late challenges as he turned away too quickly,
but handled the tension and cynical challenges/time wasting late
on well. Good intervention by James Bell too which then lead to
the West Am coach getting sent off.
>
--- End Quote ---
The Trossard foul wasn't way off the ball and was in front of
the Raya situation in the six yard box.
In this instance it would appear that the referee initially
judged there to be no foul as the goal wasn't disallowed.
[/quote]
Why would you disallow a goal for an offence by the defending
team
#Post#: 105664--------------------------------------------------
Re: Chris Kavanagh - West Ham vs Arsenal
DIR By: TA_Ref
Date: May 11, 2026, 6:25 am
---------------------------------------------------------
There’s too much comparison and contrast going on everywhere in
my opinion. I think some people are trying to compare incidents
which are in no way similar to yesterday’s one.
I have very rarely seen an incident this season where an
attacker has an arm across the goalkeeper and also holding the
keeper’s arm which very clearly and obviously impedes him from
playing the ball.
The closest one I have seen that is similar is the Saliba on
Bayindir as mentioned on the thread because there is momentary
contact on the GK’s arm but it wasn’t sustained and it wasn’t as
impactful in my opinion. I don’t think Arsenal could have had
too many complaints if that one was disallowed but I can see
differences.
Once again, yesterday’s incident is so different to what we have
seen across the season. Attackers have a right to stand in their
own space and hold their ground from a corner. Contact in that
manner is natural. Again, jumping to compete for the header is
slightly different (like Gabriel vs Aston Villa).
I think this is one of the clearest cases of impeding a
goalkeeper that I have seen this season so I do believe that the
whole process was correct. All the ex-officials that I have seen
have said that the correct decision has been made while also
rightly criticising the powers for not punishing the
holding/grappling from corners across the season.
Also, I do hope we get the VAR audio from this incident because
I think it would help clear a lot of things up.
#Post#: 105665--------------------------------------------------
Re: Chris Kavanagh - West Ham vs Arsenal
DIR By: Claretman
Date: May 11, 2026, 6:31 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: TA_Ref link ---
>
> There’s too much comparison and contrast going on everywhere
in my opinion. I think some people are trying to compare
incidents which are in no way similar to yesterday’s one.
>
> I have very rarely seen an incident this season where an
attacker has an arm across the goalkeeper and also holding the
keeper’s arm which very clearly and obviously impedes him from
playing the ball.
>
> The closest one I have seen that is similar is the Saliba on
Bayindir as mentioned on the thread because there is momentary
contact on the GK’s arm but it wasn’t sustained and it wasn’t as
impactful in my opinion. I don’t think Arsenal could have had
too many complaints if that one was disallowed but I can see
differences.
>
> Once again, yesterday’s incident is so different to what we
have seen across the season. Attackers have a right to stand in
their own space and hold their ground from a corner. Contact in
that manner is natural. Again, jumping to compete for the header
is slightly different (like Gabriel vs Aston Villa).
>
> I think this is one of the clearest cases of impeding a
goalkeeper that I have seen this season so I do believe that the
whole process was correct. All the ex-officials that I have seen
have said that the correct decision has been made while also
rightly criticising the powers for not punishing the
holding/grappling from corners across the season.
>
> Also, I do hope we get the VAR audio from this incident
because I think it would help clear a lot of things up.
>
--- End Quote ---
The pgmol hierarchy have got themselves in this mess as they
dont approve of referees controlling the shenanigans at corner
kicks and free kicks correctly thus we have a free for all.
I agree totally there is foul on the goalkeeper but think other
fouls come first, these fouls go scott free.
The pgmol needs to look at their process at set pieces ruthlessy
and stop trying to appease the what football wants brigade. The
game is football not wrestling.
#Post#: 105666--------------------------------------------------
Re: Chris Kavanagh - West Ham vs Arsenal
DIR By: Pm2
Date: May 11, 2026, 6:32 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Horrible error by kavanagh to blow whistle 87th minute for no
reason. He hadnt a clue WhT he was doing. Looked over at AR for
an offside but obviously wasn’t
#Post#: 105667--------------------------------------------------
Re: Chris Kavanagh - West Ham vs Arsenal
DIR By: TA_Ref
Date: May 11, 2026, 6:36 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Pm2 link ---
>
> Horrible error by kavanagh to blow whistle 87th minute for no
reason. He hadnt a clue WhT he was doing. Looked over at AR for
an offside but obviously wasn’t
>
--- End Quote ---
James Bell pointed out a foul to him (Wilson on Mosquera) which
occurred on Kavanagh’s blindside. Understandably, looked a tad
confused while Bell was explaining.
I actually thought Bell controlled the dugouts quite well
yesterday.
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