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#Post#: 92537--------------------------------------------------
Re: Man United - Aston Villa. Tom Bramall
DIR By: EIREREF86
Date: May 25, 2025, 12:09 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Adam link ---
>
> [quote author=Joecphillips link=topic=7028.msg92533#msg92533
date=1748192563]
> [quote author=RCG link=topic=7028.msg92531#msg92531
date=1748192209]
> I think Aston Villa need to look at points dropped after
European games this year long before they shout at TB - yes its
a poor decision, one given out of an assumption the keeper had
possession of the balll in his hands. He blew the whistle
because he thought it was a foul. Under NO circumstances was
VAR designed to ref those situations
>
--- End Quote ---
Why did he feel the need to rush to the whistle? The ball was
heading into the net before the whistle, delay 2 seconds and
avoid all problems its no different to offsides
[/quote]
It takes time for a referee to learn to go against their
instinct to blow that they will have done up until being
promoted to the EPL and using VAR. I have a lot of sympathy with
TB.
[/quote]
Agreed I do have a lot of sympathy for Bramall. He has had more
EFL games than EPL which no doubt played a part here. His last
few games have shown he is more than capable of operating in the
EPL could have been managed much better this season.
#Post#: 92538--------------------------------------------------
Re: Man United - Aston Villa. Tom Bramall
DIR By: Semi Retired
Date: May 25, 2025, 12:12 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
To be honest, much like Barrott incident earlier in the season,
though he’ll get grief for not delaying the whistle it would not
have made a jot of difference.
The key point here is he believed there to be a foul. Never in a
month of Sundays is VAR coming in to call that a clear and
obvious error, even if he did delay the whistle.
As others have said, I have sympathy here - when you’re
refereeing as much without VAR as with it, it must be very
difficult to train the instincts around delaying the whistle.
I think he’s had a good run overall and hopefully more
consistent appointments next season will help build momentum.
#Post#: 92539--------------------------------------------------
Re: Man United - Aston Villa. Tom Bramall
DIR By: DublinRef
Date: May 25, 2025, 12:16 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Adam link ---
>
> [quote author=Joecphillips link=topic=7028.msg92533#msg92533
date=1748192563]
> [quote author=RCG link=topic=7028.msg92531#msg92531
date=1748192209]
> I think Aston Villa need to look at points dropped after
European games this year long before they shout at TB - yes its
a poor decision, one given out of an assumption the keeper had
possession of the balll in his hands. He blew the whistle
because he thought it was a foul. Under NO circumstances was
VAR designed to ref those situations
>
--- End Quote ---
Why did he feel the need to rush to the whistle? The ball was
heading into the net before the whistle, delay 2 seconds and
avoid all problems its no different to offsides
[/quote]
It takes time for a referee to learn to go against their
instinct to blow that they will have done up until being
promoted to the EPL and using VAR. I have a lot of sympathy with
TB.
[/quote]
I agree. In pressured situations you revert to what you know.
Had he done 20 EPL games this season would he have made this
error? Maybe, maybe not. It’s no excuse, this is top level sport
and you while you can make errors of judgement, you must get the
procedures correct. But I too have a great deal of sympathy.
#Post#: 92540--------------------------------------------------
Re: Man United - Aston Villa. Tom Bramall
DIR By: Joecphillips
Date: May 25, 2025, 12:18 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Semi Retired link ---
>
> To be honest, much like Barrott incident earlier in the
season, though he’ll get grief for not delaying the whistle it
would not have made a jot of difference.
>
> The key point here is he believed there to be a foul. Never in
a month of Sundays is VAR coming in to call that a clear and
obvious error, even if he did delay the whistle.
>
> As others have said, I have sympathy here - when you’re
refereeing as much without VAR as with it, it must be very
difficult to train the instincts around delaying the whistle.
>
> I think he’s had a good run overall and hopefully more
consistent appointments next season will help build momentum.
>
--- End Quote ---
There's no way var doesnt overturn that, if given the chance
#Post#: 92542--------------------------------------------------
Re: Man United - Aston Villa. Tom Bramall
DIR By: Claretman
Date: May 25, 2025, 12:22 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Comeonref link ---
>
> You can’t get away from the fact that he has made a massive
error which will cost Villa Millions.
> Clearly not ready yet as a top ref
>
--- End Quote ---
It was a big error to blow up early, but about his only mistake.
A very big learning curve for him.
I have great sympathy for him.
We didnt play well today, as usual at old trafford and deserved
nothing from the game.
I cant say that one decision like that has cost Villa millions,
more what we didnt do during the 38 games.
Correct decision to bin Martinez for DOGSO and correct decision
to award Man United their customary penalty against us with a
little help via comms from Howson.
#Post#: 92543--------------------------------------------------
Re: Man United - Aston Villa. Tom Bramall
DIR By: Semi Retired
Date: May 25, 2025, 12:24 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
I guess we will never know for sure, but for VAR to come in they
have to be sure the referee has made a clear and obvious error.
The law with this one says;
A goalkeeper is considered to be in control of the ball with
the hand(s) when:
the ball is between the hands or between the hand and any
surface (e.g. ground, own body) or by touching it with any part
of the hands or arms except if the ball rebounds from the
goalkeeper or the goalkeeper has made a save
holding the ball in the outstretched open hand
bouncing it on the ground or throwing it in the air
A goalkeeper cannot be challenged by an opponent when in control
of the ball with the hand(s).
Now, we can see the keeper made a hash of it, but there is an
argument he would have retained control of the ball were it not
for the challenge.
“Or by touching it with any part of his hands or arms” implies
that by the letter of the law here, the keeper could be deemed
to be in control, and thus should not be challenged for the
ball.
I agree it’s a wrong call, and I agree he should have held the
whistle, but I would be very surprised if VAR got involved here…
#Post#: 92544--------------------------------------------------
Re: Man United - Aston Villa. Tom Bramall
DIR By: Charlieboy
Date: May 25, 2025, 12:28 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Comeonref link ---
>
> You can’t get away from the fact that he has made a massive
error which will cost Villa Millions.
> Clearly not ready yet as a top ref
>
--- End Quote ---
Villa have had 38 matches to accrue enough points , 1 decision
in the 38th match did not cost them . The referee has made an
error but you cannot put villas failures down to that error.
#Post#: 92545--------------------------------------------------
Re: Man United - Aston Villa. Tom Bramall
DIR By: Claretman
Date: May 25, 2025, 12:35 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Semi Retired link ---
>
> I guess we will never know for sure, but for VAR to come in
they have to be sure the referee has made a clear and obvious
error.
>
> The law with this one says;
>
> A goalkeeper is considered to be in control of the ball with
the hand(s) when:
> the ball is between the hands or between the hand and any
surface (e.g. ground, own body) or by touching it with any part
of the hands or arms except if the ball rebounds from the
goalkeeper or the goalkeeper has made a save
> holding the ball in the outstretched open hand
> bouncing it on the ground or throwing it in the air
> A goalkeeper cannot be challenged by an opponent when in
control of the ball with the hand(s).
>
> Now, we can see the keeper made a hash of it, but there is an
argument he would have retained control of the ball were it not
for the challenge.
>
> “Or by touching it with any part of his hands or arms” implies
that by the letter of the law here, the keeper could be deemed
to be in control, and thus should not be challenged for the
ball.
>
> I agree it’s a wrong call, and I agree he should have held the
whistle, but I would be very surprised if VAR got involved here…
>
--- End Quote ---
He wasnt touching it with either hand and the ball was mid air
too, with daylight between the ball and gloves, i dont see how
he can be in control of the ball but of course i may be wrong.
Had he not blown and var had overturned it we still wouldnt know
what the final score would have been and again the on decision
hasnt cost villa a champions league place either.
I also believe the commentators were told var couldnt intervene
as play had been halted by the referee blowing his whistle but
of course that doesnt mean var would have intervened.
#Post#: 92546--------------------------------------------------
Re: Man United - Aston Villa. Tom Bramall
DIR By: Joecphillips
Date: May 25, 2025, 12:37 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Semi Retired link ---
>
> I guess we will never know for sure, but for VAR to come in
they have to be sure the referee has made a clear and obvious
error.
>
> The law with this one says;
>
> A goalkeeper is considered to be in control of the ball with
the hand(s) when:
> the ball is between the hands or between the hand and any
surface (e.g. ground, own body) or by touching it with any part
of the hands or arms except if the ball rebounds from the
goalkeeper or the goalkeeper has made a save
> holding the ball in the outstretched open hand
> bouncing it on the ground or throwing it in the air
> A goalkeeper cannot be challenged by an opponent when in
control of the ball with the hand(s).
>
> Now, we can see the keeper made a hash of it, but there is an
argument he would have retained control of the ball were it not
for the challenge.
>
> “Or by touching it with any part of his hands or arms” implies
that by the letter of the law here, the keeper could be deemed
to be in control, and thus should not be challenged for the
ball.
>
> I agree it’s a wrong call, and I agree he should have held the
whistle, but I would be very surprised if VAR got involved here…
>
--- End Quote ---
If we are using that interpretation as being the last to touch
it and not currently being in contact with the ball then anyone
touching the ball after a rebound could be said to have been
challenging a keeper in control of the ball.
#Post#: 92548--------------------------------------------------
Re: Man United - Aston Villa. Tom Bramall
DIR By: Semi Retired
Date: May 25, 2025, 12:42 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
Yes and I think we all agree it’s a bad call.
My thinking here is more that VAR would not have corrected it,
and it would have come down to “referees call”. We’ve seen many
decisions that have been deemed to be wrong kept as referees
call this season.
Doesn’t mean it’s not a bad call, but I think the bigger
criticism is on the call itself
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