DIR Return Create A Forum - Home
---------------------------------------------------------
RateTheRef
HTML https://ratetheref.createaforum.com
---------------------------------------------------------
*****************************************************
DIR Return to: General Discussion
*****************************************************
#Post#: 92024--------------------------------------------------
Late offside flags causing injury?
DIR By: Failed Ref
Date: May 14, 2025, 8:53 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Did 'late flag' offside law expose Awoniyi to serious injury?
Leicester City v Forest and the question is whether delaying the
flag for offside caused the injury to Awoniyi?
Firstly I wish him well. An induced coma is not what you wish to
hear about.
This has been highlighted on the BBC website and on other news
outlets but I cannot agree with the argument that delaying the
flag causes accidents. Obvious offsides should be called as it
looks daft and wastes time but how it encourages injuries
escapes me.
Opinions here?
#Post#: 92025--------------------------------------------------
Re: Late offside flags causing injury?
DIR By: ell
Date: May 14, 2025, 9:02 am
---------------------------------------------------------
if the flag had gone up then he wouldn't be needing major
surgery...
#Post#: 92026--------------------------------------------------
Re: Late offside flags causing injury?
DIR By: Failed Ref
Date: May 14, 2025, 9:13 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: ell link ---
>
> if the flag had gone up then he wouldn't be needing major
surgery...
>
--- End Quote ---
In which case, you never play advantage in case someone gets
injured?
#Post#: 92027--------------------------------------------------
Re: Late offside flags causing injury?
DIR By: Midlander
Date: May 14, 2025, 9:20 am
---------------------------------------------------------
An interesting discussion topic and one that has been quite hot
in my office today. Firstly, I will start by saying I hope the
player recovers in full as none of us want to see anyone in this
condition after playing the game we all love!
The delayed flag question:
It’s something that I have said from the start with delaying the
flag for any law 11 decision you naturally leave a risk of
collision and potentially serious injury for a player (I do
except for that same risk exists when they are on site however
there’s no grounds to stop again in this situation). This risk
is made greater and players are travelling at speed and in
particularly in 1 V 1 situations.
I am certainly not looking to pass blame on the assistant
involved in this situation because I firmly believe that they
are following instruction from the powers that be however for me
this was not a marginal decision.
This was a clear offside that at any step of a game we as match
officials would be expected to judge that decision correctly.
It’s my opinion that keeping the flag down provided no benefit
to the game with such a clear margin of offside and therefore
exposed the players to an unnecessary risk. We need to get back
to trusting our AR’s to raise the flag when someone is in an
obvious offside position. Let them back themselves, and the
years of excellent decision making they have demonstrated in
order to be at the top table. Let them raise the flag and take
that risk away.
For the marginal decisions, and by marginal I mean crossover at
speed or anything where the flash lag effect could be apply, or
even the little toe offside decision. Then I think you have to
keep that delayed flag if we are to fully benefit from a
technology we have.
#Post#: 92028--------------------------------------------------
Re: Late offside flags causing injury?
DIR By: bmb
Date: May 14, 2025, 9:41 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Midlander link ---
> This was a clear offside that at any step of a game we as
match officials would be expected to judge that decision
correctly. It’s my opinion that keeping the flag down provided
no benefit to the game with such a clear margin of offside and
therefore exposed the players to an unnecessary risk. We need to
get back to trusting our AR’s to raise the flag when someone is
in an obvious offside position. Let them back themselves, and
the years of excellent decision making they have demonstrated in
order to be at the top table. Let them raise the flag and take
that risk away.
>
--- End Quote ---
I agree with this. It must be very frustrating for ARs to not be
allowed to do their job because of VAR. They were extremely good
at it 97/98% of the time pre-VAR. Marginal decisions ok fine I
can accept the technical help to a degree, I'm not a fan of VAR
myself and think it has brought more issues than it's fixed but
as I keep snapping at non referee football friends if you'd have
accepted referee error as an integral part of the game no
different than player error is we'd not all be lumbered with VAR
now.
I don't know if the AR putting the flag up would have stopped
the player clattering into the post, it seems to happen on a
regular basis, especially with the speed the game is played at
and sadly on this occasion it has led to an awful injury. We've
been debating the delayed flag 'issue' ever since VAR was first
introduced and I think we are all pretty much in agreement that
it is a downside and one we don't like/want/accept. This
incident might get those at the top talking about it and looking
at changes but I somehow doubt it. It is a conversation that
needs to be had, imo and maybe the one good thing that can come
of this is that it will start that conversation off.
The most important thing however with this incident right now is
the full recovery of Taiwo Awoniyi, awful injury and situation.
Wishing him a full and speedy recovery.
#Post#: 92030--------------------------------------------------
Re: Late offside flags causing injury?
DIR By: Ashington46
Date: May 14, 2025, 9:52 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: bmb link ---
>
> [quote author=Midlander link=topic=7003.msg92027#msg92027
date=1747232430] This was a clear offside that at any step of a
game we as match officials would be expected to judge that
decision correctly. It’s my opinion that keeping the flag down
provided no benefit to the game with such a clear margin of
offside and therefore exposed the players to an unnecessary
risk. We need to get back to trusting our AR’s to raise the flag
when someone is in an obvious offside position. Let them back
themselves, and the years of excellent decision making they have
demonstrated in order to be at the top table. Let them raise the
flag and take that risk away.
>
--- End Quote ---
I agree with this. It must be very frustrating for ARs to not be
allowed to do their job because of VAR. They were extremely good
at it 97/98% of the time pre-VAR. Marginal decisions ok fine I
can accept the technical help to a degree, I'm not a fan of VAR
myself and think it has brought more issues than it's fixed but
as I keep snapping at non referee football friends if you'd have
accepted referee error as an integral part of the game no
different than player error is we'd not all be lumbered with VAR
now.
I don't know if the AR putting the flag up would have stopped
the player clattering into the post, it seems to happen on a
regular basis, especially with the speed the game is played at
and sadly on this occasion it has led to an awful injury. We've
been debating the delayed flag 'issue' ever since VAR was first
introduced and I think we are all pretty much in agreement that
it is a downside and one we don't like/want/accept. This
incident might get those at the top talking about it and looking
at changes but I somehow doubt it. It is a conversation that
needs to be had, imo and maybe the one good thing that can come
of this is that it will start that conversation off.
The most important thing however with this incident right now is
the full recovery of Taiwo Awoniyi, awful injury and situation.
Wishing him a full and speedy recovery.
[/quote]
So sad to see this incident and all I can do is wish Taiwo
Awoniyi a full recovery and hope that he will be playing the
game afterwards.
Not the assistant's fault at all. The whole incident was caused
by the use of VAR and nothing else. No VAR, flag goes up
straight away, as it always used to except on the odd occasion
when assistants missed it because they are human. It was so
obvious right from the outset and should have been a free kick
some 5 yards inside the opposition half. I feel really sorry for
Sian Massey-Ellis because she will be mulling over in her mind
whther or not she did the correct thing. No blame can be
attached to her at all.
Best wishes to Taiwo in his recovery.
#Post#: 92033--------------------------------------------------
Re: Late offside flags causing injury?
DIR By: ell
Date: May 14, 2025, 10:24 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Failed Ref link ---
>
> [quote author=ell link=topic=7003.msg92025#msg92025
date=1747231359]
> if the flag had gone up then he wouldn't be needing major
surgery...
>
--- End Quote ---
In which case, you never play advantage in case someone gets
injured?
[/quote]
the flag should go up in instances like this where the offside
is obvious
#Post#: 92036--------------------------------------------------
Re: Late offside flags causing injury?
DIR By: Affy_Moose
Date: May 14, 2025, 10:55 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: ell link ---
>
> [quote author=Failed Ref link=topic=7003.msg92026#msg92026
date=1747232011]
> [quote author=ell link=topic=7003.msg92025#msg92025
date=1747231359]
> if the flag had gone up then he wouldn't be needing major
surgery...
>
--- End Quote ---
In which case, you never play advantage in case someone gets
injured?
[/quote]
the flag should go up in instances like this where the offside
is obvious
[/quote]
As ever, this isn't a particularly helpful or novel insight.
It's a spectrum, and you cannot draw an objective line of where
obvious starts and ends. ARs do in fact flag for 'obvious'
offside decisions - the impossible position however is agreeing
a perfectly objective definition of 'obvious' that will satisfy
both fans and pundits (with their inherent contradictions) and
never making a mistake where what's 'obvious' is in fact wrong.
Surgeons and aircraft pilots go through a thorough checklist
before every operation/flight of even the most basic, trivial,
and obvious aspects. Why do they do it? Because if you don't
check everything then you make it incumbent on the individual to
decide where the risk applies, and indeed, what 'obviously'
needs checked or doesn't. How do you avoid errors? You check
everything.
Besides, injuries are part of football. You cannot have VAR and
flag immediately offside for every offside decision. It's
completely and totally impossible. We could try and tighten it
up further, and re-balance to make the risk of mistakes higher
and - in turn - the risk of injuries lower, but that only works
until it doesn't. And injuries will still occur regardless.
And beyond that, this type of debate is full of
counter-factuals. It's a horrible injury, but debating whether
a flag should have been thrown is really not a useful path to
follow. It's basically an academic discussion as to whether
entirely changing the Laws of the Game could or would result in
less risk. Well - yes. That much is obvious. But if we change
this, then why not also get rid of the advantage Law? What
other aspects of the game increase the risk of injury, not
contesting headers?
Maybe we tighten it up somewhat, and maybe that's a conversation
that can be had - sensibly - in the public domain. But it has
to be accepted - today - that it will result in a non-zero
increase in wrong decisions.
#Post#: 92037--------------------------------------------------
Re: Late offside flags causing injury?
DIR By: TA_Ref
Date: May 14, 2025, 11:07 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Affy_Moose link ---
>
> [quote author=ell link=topic=7003.msg92033#msg92033
date=1747236278]
> [quote author=Failed Ref link=topic=7003.msg92026#msg92026
date=1747232011]
> [quote author=ell link=topic=7003.msg92025#msg92025
date=1747231359]
> if the flag had gone up then he wouldn't be needing major
surgery...
>
--- End Quote ---
In which case, you never play advantage in case someone gets
injured?
[/quote]
the flag should go up in instances like this where the offside
is obvious
[/quote]
Besides, injuries are part of football. You cannot have VAR and
flag immediately offside for every offside decision. It's
completely and totally impossible. We could try and tighten it
up further, and re-balance to make the risk of mistakes higher
and - in turn - the risk of injuries lower, but that only works
until it doesn't. And injuries will still occur regardless.
[/quote]
Totally agree with this paragraph. If Elanga was originally
onside then Awoniyi would still have clattered into the post. Of
course this incident could’ve been prevented with an early flag
but that doesn’t detract that these sort of accidents do occur
on a football pitch. There’s no point of VAR and SAOT if we’re
going to instantly flag decisions because play cannot continue.
As others have I said, you have to feel sympathy for Sian
Massey-Ellis because she is following the rules and who knows,
the offside may have looked tighter to her in real time and not
as obvious as the replay showed.
But as I said in other thread, all of my thoughts and prayers
are with Taiwo Awoniyi at this time and I sincerely wish to see
him on a football pitch again at some point
#Post#: 92038--------------------------------------------------
Re: Late offside flags causing injury?
DIR By: HChip
Date: May 14, 2025, 11:50 am
---------------------------------------------------------
I am feeling that this rule should be voided in certain
circumstances - e.g if an offside is clear and obvious.
Obviously for less obvious, keep it down, but I feel like, as we
saw in the game, if an offside is that obvious, there would be
nothing to exactly rule out.
That is not me going at Sian Massey-Ellis who was doing what she
is instructed to, she done the correct thing and it is not her
fault at all. But, I think the rule makers should reconsider as
the serious injury that everyone has been dreading has now
happened, it all could have been avoided if that slight rule
change was made.
*****************************************************
Page 1 of 2
DIR Next Page