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#Post#: 6453--------------------------------------------------
Re: Craig Pawson Cardiff vs Chelsea
DIR By: Footyfan
Date: April 2, 2019, 5:44 pm
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If he goes out in a blaze of glory it will be the best bit of tv
all season.
#Post#: 6454--------------------------------------------------
Re: Craig Pawson Cardiff vs Chelsea
DIR By: Tim Wills
Date: April 2, 2019, 7:54 pm
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I am believer that decisions do tend to even themselves out
although it can be hard to take at the time. York City's most
recent spell in League Two came courtesy of an inept assistant
in their Wembley Play-Off Final (not flagging our winner for
offside) but a few seasons earlier, we lost at the semi-final
stage thanks largely to the incompetence of the referee.
However I also believe that Neil Warnock does have a point in
regards to current crop of officials because basically you have
only 5 decent referees in Atkinson, Dean, Marriner, Oliver and
Taylor operating in the Premiership. As it is, you need 20
referees (4th official duties) every weekend and the quality in
depth simply isn't there at the moment. Yes you can fill a few
holes with Friend, Moss, Probert and Pawson (perhaps this Sunday
wasn't his finest hour) but then you've got the likes of Atwell,
East, Hooper and Mason who quite frankly shouldn't be anywhere
near a Premiership match.
Maybe it is time to replace Mike Riley which might encourage
Mark Clattenburg to return. Throw in a pair of Ed Shreeren
tickets and I reckon you've got a deal.
#Post#: 6466--------------------------------------------------
Re: Craig Pawson Cardiff vs Chelsea
DIR By: Kopref
Date: April 3, 2019, 9:33 am
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It cannot be denied that Mark was a very good referee but just
like many of the best footballers it doesn't automatically
follow he would be a great coach or manager. How did he do in
the middle east on that score, I genuinly don't know and am not
being sarcastic. Has he any previous experience that would lead
you to think he has the qualities required to head up and manage
an organisation. When you look at how well a company or a team
are managed rarely does it come down to just one person. Would
he make a good number two or is he too much of a maverick ? It
is one thing being a good critic and being able to highlight
where the shortcomings are it is entirely different when you are
charged with doing it . You only have to listen to Hacket
spewing his words of wisdom and saying just how much is wrong
and compare that with what he actually did when in office.
#Post#: 6467--------------------------------------------------
Re: Craig Pawson Cardiff vs Chelsea
DIR By: Readingfan
Date: April 3, 2019, 9:51 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Tim Wills link ---
>
> I am believer that decisions do tend to even themselves out
although it can be hard to take at the time. York City's most
recent spell in League Two came courtesy of an inept assistant
in their Wembley Play-Off Final (not flagging our winner for
offside) but a few seasons earlier, we lost at the semi-final
stage thanks largely to the incompetence of the referee.
>
> However I also believe that Neil Warnock does have a point in
regards to current crop of officials because basically you have
only 5 decent referees in Atkinson, Dean, Marriner, Oliver and
Taylor operating in the Premiership. As it is, you need 20
referees (4th official duties) every weekend and the quality in
depth simply isn't there at the moment. Yes you can fill a few
holes with Friend, Moss, Probert and Pawson (perhaps this Sunday
wasn't his finest hour) but then you've got the likes of Atwell,
East, Hooper and Mason who quite frankly shouldn't be anywhere
near a Premiership match.
>
> Maybe it is time to replace Mike Riley which might encourage
Mark Clattenburg to return. Throw in a pair of Ed Shreeren
tickets and I reckon you've got a deal.
>
--- End Quote ---
I think that Neil Warnock's suggestion that the officials are
the worst in Europe was certainly an exaggeration but Henry
Winter's observation that these are the worst set of top-flight
English referees for a generation is perhaps worth exploring
more. We shouldn't be too rose-tinted about the past because
mistakes have always been made but I do think the overall depth
now is weaker than at previous times.
Personally I think that Michael Oliver, Mike Dean and Martin
Atkinson (in roughly that order) have been the standout referees
this season - two of those are obviously much nearer the end of
their careers than the beginning.
Anthony Taylor and Andre Marriner undoubtedly have ability as
referees but I think have both have been a bit too inconsistent
this season - some very good performances indeed but also too
many that haven't been up to the standard they can deliver.
The puzzling fact for me is identifying the issue beyond those
you have mentioned. I actually think that Craig Pawson, Paul
Tierney, Chris Kavanagh and David Coote have all developed
(quite) well since being promoted to the Premier League,
relative to the reasonable expectation to have from them.
Equally, I think that Kevin Friend and Jon Moss have both had
above-average seasons relative to their usual level.
I think that Roger East, Lee Mason and Simon Hooper are the
three weakest referees. I certainly think it's time that East
and Mason stopped being active referees on the SG. It's Hooper's
first season so I guess I would persist him with for one more
year but expect to see a significant improvement to remain at
this level.
Perhaps part of the issue is there are too many middling issues
that can do a steady job but little more. I think that Rob Jones
and Andy Madley being promoted to the Premier League would be a
boost to the quality level (certainly when they have had time to
adapt) but as discussed before there also seems to be a shortage
in quality in SG2 which means there are not a flood of referees
there you could necessarily have high expectations of being a
success.
I don't know precisely who is 'responsible' for this situation,
if indeed others agree that it is problematic. Would better
coaching make a significant difference? Are there issues with
identifying suitable talent at the lower levels early enough? Is
there a problem with attracting or retaining enough referees of
a sufficient quality? I'm not sure there is an easy answer and I
have no idea what the difficult answer is!
It does seem to me, as a closing remark, that SG referees are
now often less likely to actively make a big decision. 10 or so
years ago I think you were more likely to get harsh or erratic
red cards or penalty awards but it at least felt that there was
a group of strong officials who were willing to make decisions.
It sometimes seems now that SG referees adopt to much of a
low-profile style which can be great when a game is flowing but
often leads to them failing to step up when required or penalise
SFP challenges. This is one of the reasons why I rate Mike Dean
so highly because it feels he is not afraid to make a big
decision - this sometimes results in a harsh red card (e.g. the
West Ham V Man Utd game a few years ago) but generally he is a
strong and accurate decision maker and actually seems to have
his own style rather than being a clone of others.
#Post#: 6470--------------------------------------------------
Re: Craig Pawson Cardiff vs Chelsea
DIR By: Failed Ref
Date: April 3, 2019, 11:01 am
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How can you compare footballers of the past with the current
players? You cannot. Likewise how can you compare the standards
of yesterday with those of today? What is the benchmark? What is
the quantifiable standard by which you can compare them? They
are not there. Refereeing today is so march harder in a world
where authority is questioned (witness again another pupil
escorted out of class threatening another pupil and teacher).
Factor in camera's everywhere, instant media coverage, cheating
such as diving and pulling and that everyone has an opinion
regardless of their qualifications, the job is far harder than
it has ever been. At best you can compare referees of the
current generation but that is all - the rest is subjective and
newspaper column filling.
#Post#: 6471--------------------------------------------------
Re: Craig Pawson Cardiff vs Chelsea
DIR By: Readingfan
Date: April 3, 2019, 11:26 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Failed Ref link ---
>
> How can you compare footballers of the past with the current
players? You cannot. Likewise how can you compare the standards
of yesterday with those of today? What is the benchmark? What is
the quantifiable standard by which you can compare them? They
are not there. Refereeing today is so march harder in a world
where authority is questioned (witness again another pupil
escorted out of class threatening another pupil and teacher).
Factor in camera's everywhere, instant media coverage, cheating
such as diving and pulling and that everyone has an opinion
regardless of their qualifications, the job is far harder than
it has ever been. At best you can compare referees of the
current generation but that is all - the rest is subjective and
newspaper column filling.
>
--- End Quote ---
I would certainly agree that it is subjective but then that is
true of many things. Suggesting that refereeing is harder now is
a subjective view in itself and makes a comparison with
refereeing of the past.
I would tend to agree that there are probably more challenges
facing referees now (although they also have more technological
aid and so on than previous generations).
In my opinion, there was a greater depth to the group of Premier
League referees in the past - but I don't think that is an issue
in itself. The more pertinent point is how the current group can
be improved and whether there are changes required to the system
to help improve the situation.
#Post#: 6484--------------------------------------------------
Re: Craig Pawson Cardiff vs Chelsea
DIR By: reflector
Date: April 3, 2019, 5:41 pm
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An interesting debate and one which I hope Is taking place
within the higher echelons of football including the FA, Premier
League and PGMOL. Readingfan asks if better coaching would
help. The answer surely ought to be "yes" but referees at the
top level have probably never had more coaching, management,
scrutiny, training facilities, endless meetings as well, of
course time to prepare and distractions through not having to
have other jobs and receiving decent pay and rewards from
refereeing. The sort of things which the likes of Jack Taylor,
George Courtney and Joe Worrall probably never even dreamed of.
Yet, despite all of these aids to improve standards, there is
still apparently a consensus that the present SG1 (not to
mention SG2) as a group is just not good enough. I am afraid I
don't have the answer but I have seen in other walks of life
where performance can suffer where there is poor management and
where perhaps people are subjected to too much scrutiny,
appraisals and interference from their superiors, rather than
too little. Whether that's the case here, I don't know but
certainly full time referees don't seem to be the solution that
many of us had expected or hoped.
#Post#: 6488--------------------------------------------------
Re: Craig Pawson Cardiff vs Chelsea
DIR By: Whistleblower
Date: April 4, 2019, 3:00 am
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Really interesting debate above. RTR at its best I think. Thank
you to the contributors for their thoughtful analysis. It is
difficult to compare generations of referees. What you can see
across the years are those officials who possess a great
authority about them and their decision making and those who
possess much less.
Refereeing in the top flight is much harder nowadays; I think
the endemic cheating is a major factor and the scrutiny is
intense which itself makes glaring highlights of errors which in
the past would have been confined to a far smaller audience.
The resources which modern referees have are so much greater
than those which were enjoyed by Jack Taylor, George Courtney
and Joe Worrall et al but I do not think the resources can
compensate for the added pressures and forensic dissection of
every decision.
#Post#: 6543--------------------------------------------------
Re: Craig Pawson Cardiff vs Chelsea
DIR By: Tim Wills
Date: April 4, 2019, 1:19 pm
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Ironically one of the biggest problems of the SG group (well at
least SG1) is that they are now all professional referees. I
know of 2 officials who would have been excellent in the
Premiership but quit refereeing because they already decent jobs
and didn't want to be made to choose between their outside
career and refereeing. One continued as an assistant in Premier
League (for a while) but the other became completely
disillusioned and sadly packed the whole thing in.
#Post#: 6545--------------------------------------------------
Re: Craig Pawson Cardiff vs Chelsea
DIR By: bmb
Date: April 4, 2019, 1:40 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Tim Wills link ---
>
> Ironically one of the biggest problems of the SG group (well
at least SG1) is that they are now all professional referees. I
know of 2 officials who would have been excellent in the
Premiership but quit refereeing because they already decent jobs
and didn't want to be made to choose between their outside
career and refereeing. One continued as an assistant in Premier
League (for a while) but the other became completely
disillusioned and sadly packed the whole thing in.
>
--- End Quote ---
Very much the category Dean Whitesone seems to fall into.
Excellent referee but has put his outside career first,
understandably & as such simply cannot progress higher up the
ladder. It's a shame.
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