DIR Return Create A Forum - Home
---------------------------------------------------------
RateTheRef
HTML https://ratetheref.createaforum.com
---------------------------------------------------------
*****************************************************
DIR Return to: General Discussion
*****************************************************
#Post#: 79898--------------------------------------------------
Re: Clubs vote to scrap var(lead by wolves)
DIR By: Marvin Grapevine
Date: May 18, 2024, 4:41 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Joecphillips link ---
>
> [quote author=Readingfan link=topic=6014.msg79836#msg79836
date=1715856741]
> Here's some changes I'd like to see/consider:
>
> 1. Introduce semi-automated offside as soon as possible as I
think that would really make offside process more efficient.
Ideally they would find a way to quickly communicate the likely
decision so everyone knows pretty much straight away.
>
> 2. Improve communication/transparency further - I think going
down route of in-stadium announcements would be a good step and
they should release more post-match audio. I'd ideally like to
see them go down a system similar to rugby where everything is
shown on big screen and audio is played out live but I believe
both of those would need IFAB approval (and I think IFAB deserve
a lot of blame for VAR problems.)
>
> 3. I think bar for VAR intervention is too high in PL and they
need to drop clear and obvious a bit. If you look at judgements
of Premier League panel it seems there are much more missed VAR
interventions as opposed to incorrect ones. (Ideally I'd go more
down a system of rugby where the referee has much more scope to
look at major incidents but there's no pressure to change their
decision and they can just say they are happy with their
decision but obviously that would require a complete change of
VAR approach.)
>
> 4. Would it be beneficial to have a dedicated panel of VARs
and would this be practical to implement? Would it be useful to
widen FA Cup approach of having an extra VAR referee in room?
>
> I don't really support the idea of a challenge system as I
think teams would just use up challenges because they were there
and you'd end up with missed incidents because a team didn't
appeal or didn't have a challenge left - there'd also be
increased implications of VAR mistakes as it would result in
lost challenges.
>
--- End Quote ---
I’d say these are all worthwhile changes to try:
1. Would deal with one of the most common issues
2. I’ve wanted more openness of what goes on in decision making
processes, it helps humanise people and would likely help reduce
the discussion around referees being corrupt/hate my team etc, I
do think it may amplify a small minority what algorithms would
push their negative/hateful comments further the only issue
3. Agree again an error is an error and needs fixing we
shouldn’t be saying it’s wrong but is it wrong enough.
4. I do think this would help they are very different roles and
although there are a lot of similarities require different
skills, there are a lot of discussions here about how referees
have interacted with players big for on the field but not key
for var roles that are more processing information efficiently.
[/quote]
The problem with point 3 is fundamentally you are then forcing
yourself to re-referee the entire game. No decision is out of
bounds. If an incorrectly awarded throw in leads to a goal, this
should surely be overturned? I just think you're then looking at
a scenario where it creeps ever further and further...
The only solution for me is to get rid of it for all subjective
decisions, and leave it solely for matters of fact. Technology
tells us if a ball was over the line or not, or if a player is
in an offside position or not. It cannot - and never will be
able to - tell us if something is a foul because that always
relies on human subjectivity.
#Post#: 79904--------------------------------------------------
Re: Clubs vote to scrap var(lead by wolves)
DIR By: Readingfan
Date: May 18, 2024, 9:37 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Not sure if posted elsewhere but here's an example of the
in-stadium announcement in Australian A League which I think is
a bit better/more detailed than I've seen elsewhere. Hope it
comes in for PL next season -
HTML https://twitter.com/DaleJohnsonESPN/status/1789211341804441724
#Post#: 79905--------------------------------------------------
Re: Clubs vote to scrap var(lead by wolves)
DIR By: Readingfan
Date: May 18, 2024, 9:52 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Marvin Grapevine link ---
>
> [quote author=Joecphillips link=topic=6014.msg79861#msg79861
date=1715928325]
> [quote author=Readingfan link=topic=6014.msg79836#msg79836
date=1715856741]
> Here's some changes I'd like to see/consider:
>
> 1. Introduce semi-automated offside as soon as possible as I
think that would really make offside process more efficient.
Ideally they would find a way to quickly communicate the likely
decision so everyone knows pretty much straight away.
>
> 2. Improve communication/transparency further - I think going
down route of in-stadium announcements would be a good step and
they should release more post-match audio. I'd ideally like to
see them go down a system similar to rugby where everything is
shown on big screen and audio is played out live but I believe
both of those would need IFAB approval (and I think IFAB deserve
a lot of blame for VAR problems.)
>
> 3. I think bar for VAR intervention is too high in PL and they
need to drop clear and obvious a bit. If you look at judgements
of Premier League panel it seems there are much more missed VAR
interventions as opposed to incorrect ones. (Ideally I'd go more
down a system of rugby where the referee has much more scope to
look at major incidents but there's no pressure to change their
decision and they can just say they are happy with their
decision but obviously that would require a complete change of
VAR approach.)
>
> 4. Would it be beneficial to have a dedicated panel of VARs
and would this be practical to implement? Would it be useful to
widen FA Cup approach of having an extra VAR referee in room?
>
> I don't really support the idea of a challenge system as I
think teams would just use up challenges because they were there
and you'd end up with missed incidents because a team didn't
appeal or didn't have a challenge left - there'd also be
increased implications of VAR mistakes as it would result in
lost challenges.
>
--- End Quote ---
I’d say these are all worthwhile changes to try:
1. Would deal with one of the most common issues
2. I’ve wanted more openness of what goes on in decision making
processes, it helps humanise people and would likely help reduce
the discussion around referees being corrupt/hate my team etc, I
do think it may amplify a small minority what algorithms would
push their negative/hateful comments further the only issue
3. Agree again an error is an error and needs fixing we
shouldn’t be saying it’s wrong but is it wrong enough.
4. I do think this would help they are very different roles and
although there are a lot of similarities require different
skills, there are a lot of discussions here about how referees
have interacted with players big for on the field but not key
for var roles that are more processing information efficiently.
[/quote]
The problem with point 3 is fundamentally you are then forcing
yourself to re-referee the entire game. No decision is out of
bounds. If an incorrectly awarded throw in leads to a goal, this
should surely be overturned? I just think you're then looking at
a scenario where it creeps ever further and further...
The only solution for me is to get rid of it for all subjective
decisions, and leave it solely for matters of fact. Technology
tells us if a ball was over the line or not, or if a player is
in an offside position or not. It cannot - and never will be
able to - tell us if something is a foul because that always
relies on human subjectivity.
[/quote]
I think you would still keep the limit on areas that can be
currently reviewed, as I think they have in other sports.
I think the last numbers I heard from judgement of PL panel was
there had been 29 VAR errors this season - 24 of which had been
missed interventions and 5 of which had been incorrect VAR
interventions so that suggests to me referees need to be looking
at screen more, even if they don't always change mind. It
doesn't really make sense to me to introduce video replays but
be so limiting on when video replays are shown to referee.
I don't agree it's necessary to get rid of subjective decisions
from VAR. My overriding perspective is referees are trained and
employed to make decisions so I'm generally happy to rely on
their judgement but I think they should be in a better position
to make it in many situations with access to video replays but
they should be the ones to lead it rather than someone else
trying to second guess them.
Would Thierry Henry handball count as subjective? The Zidane
headbutt in the World Cup final? I don't think it would improve
things.
#Post#: 79907--------------------------------------------------
Re: Clubs vote to scrap var(lead by wolves)
DIR By: Tweed
Date: May 18, 2024, 10:34 am
---------------------------------------------------------
I keep on hearing the challenge idea but I think it sounds
horrendous because some managers will just challenge every late
goal in the hope someone finds something because they'd be as
well to and not waste the challenge. I'd love it canned, but if
we could also can the ridiculous handball interpretation it
would help the referees and VARs tenfold.
#Post#: 79934--------------------------------------------------
Re: Clubs vote to scrap var(lead by wolves)
DIR By: rustyref
Date: May 19, 2024, 2:25 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Marvin Grapevine link ---
>
> [quote author=Joecphillips link=topic=6014.msg79861#msg79861
date=1715928325]
> [quote author=Readingfan link=topic=6014.msg79836#msg79836
date=1715856741]
> Here's some changes I'd like to see/consider:
>
> 1. Introduce semi-automated offside as soon as possible as I
think that would really make offside process more efficient.
Ideally they would find a way to quickly communicate the likely
decision so everyone knows pretty much straight away.
>
> 2. Improve communication/transparency further - I think going
down route of in-stadium announcements would be a good step and
they should release more post-match audio. I'd ideally like to
see them go down a system similar to rugby where everything is
shown on big screen and audio is played out live but I believe
both of those would need IFAB approval (and I think IFAB deserve
a lot of blame for VAR problems.)
>
> 3. I think bar for VAR intervention is too high in PL and they
need to drop clear and obvious a bit. If you look at judgements
of Premier League panel it seems there are much more missed VAR
interventions as opposed to incorrect ones. (Ideally I'd go more
down a system of rugby where the referee has much more scope to
look at major incidents but there's no pressure to change their
decision and they can just say they are happy with their
decision but obviously that would require a complete change of
VAR approach.)
>
> 4. Would it be beneficial to have a dedicated panel of VARs
and would this be practical to implement? Would it be useful to
widen FA Cup approach of having an extra VAR referee in room?
>
> I don't really support the idea of a challenge system as I
think teams would just use up challenges because they were there
and you'd end up with missed incidents because a team didn't
appeal or didn't have a challenge left - there'd also be
increased implications of VAR mistakes as it would result in
lost challenges.
>
--- End Quote ---
I’d say these are all worthwhile changes to try:
1. Would deal with one of the most common issues
2. I’ve wanted more openness of what goes on in decision making
processes, it helps humanise people and would likely help reduce
the discussion around referees being corrupt/hate my team etc, I
do think it may amplify a small minority what algorithms would
push their negative/hateful comments further the only issue
3. Agree again an error is an error and needs fixing we
shouldn’t be saying it’s wrong but is it wrong enough.
4. I do think this would help they are very different roles and
although there are a lot of similarities require different
skills, there are a lot of discussions here about how referees
have interacted with players big for on the field but not key
for var roles that are more processing information efficiently.
[/quote]
The only solution for me is to get rid of it for all subjective
decisions, and leave it solely for matters of fact. Technology
tells us if a ball was over the line or not, or if a player is
in an offside position or not. It cannot - and never will be
able to - tell us if something is a foul because that always
relies on human subjectivity.
[/quote]
There are plenty of decisions that are very, very obviously
wrong, and it would be pointless keeping any kind of VAR if
these were just ignored. The Thierry handball vs Ireland being
the most famous one, and arguably one of the reasons why VAR
came along, but I've also seen two this weekend. Crewe's
penalty vs Crawley, was very obviously an error, can understand
why the officials thought it was a penalty real time, but the
keeper clearly played the ball and there was zero contact with
the opponent. Without VAR that could have resulted in a team
unfairly missing out on promotion.
Then later today West Ham were incorrectly awarded a second goal
after Soucek put the ball into the goal using his arm. Can only
assume the officials' views were blocked off, but it was an
absolute, undoubted error to allow the goal. Getting that one
wrong could have even potentially had implications on the title
in the biggest league in the world.
All three of these examples are ones where hundreds of referees
would watch and there wouldn't be a dissenting voice that the
original decision was incorrect. If VAR sticks to these kinds
of interventions it will be fine, they aren't in the slightest
bit subjective, it is where they get involved with decisions
that you can show to a roomful of referees without them all
agreeing that is causing the problems.
#Post#: 79935--------------------------------------------------
Re: Clubs vote to scrap var(lead by wolves)
DIR By: Affy_Moose
Date: May 19, 2024, 2:56 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: rustyref link ---
>
> [quote author=Marvin Grapevine
link=topic=6014.msg79898#msg79898 date=1716025316]
> [quote author=Joecphillips link=topic=6014.msg79861#msg79861
date=1715928325]
> [quote author=Readingfan link=topic=6014.msg79836#msg79836
date=1715856741]
> Here's some changes I'd like to see/consider:
>
> 1. Introduce semi-automated offside as soon as possible as I
think that would really make offside process more efficient.
Ideally they would find a way to quickly communicate the likely
decision so everyone knows pretty much straight away.
>
> 2. Improve communication/transparency further - I think going
down route of in-stadium announcements would be a good step and
they should release more post-match audio. I'd ideally like to
see them go down a system similar to rugby where everything is
shown on big screen and audio is played out live but I believe
both of those would need IFAB approval (and I think IFAB deserve
a lot of blame for VAR problems.)
>
> 3. I think bar for VAR intervention is too high in PL and they
need to drop clear and obvious a bit. If you look at judgements
of Premier League panel it seems there are much more missed VAR
interventions as opposed to incorrect ones. (Ideally I'd go more
down a system of rugby where the referee has much more scope to
look at major incidents but there's no pressure to change their
decision and they can just say they are happy with their
decision but obviously that would require a complete change of
VAR approach.)
>
> 4. Would it be beneficial to have a dedicated panel of VARs
and would this be practical to implement? Would it be useful to
widen FA Cup approach of having an extra VAR referee in room?
>
> I don't really support the idea of a challenge system as I
think teams would just use up challenges because they were there
and you'd end up with missed incidents because a team didn't
appeal or didn't have a challenge left - there'd also be
increased implications of VAR mistakes as it would result in
lost challenges.
>
--- End Quote ---
I’d say these are all worthwhile changes to try:
1. Would deal with one of the most common issues
2. I’ve wanted more openness of what goes on in decision making
processes, it helps humanise people and would likely help reduce
the discussion around referees being corrupt/hate my team etc, I
do think it may amplify a small minority what algorithms would
push their negative/hateful comments further the only issue
3. Agree again an error is an error and needs fixing we
shouldn’t be saying it’s wrong but is it wrong enough.
4. I do think this would help they are very different roles and
although there are a lot of similarities require different
skills, there are a lot of discussions here about how referees
have interacted with players big for on the field but not key
for var roles that are more processing information efficiently.
[/quote]
The only solution for me is to get rid of it for all subjective
decisions, and leave it solely for matters of fact. Technology
tells us if a ball was over the line or not, or if a player is
in an offside position or not. It cannot - and never will be
able to - tell us if something is a foul because that always
relies on human subjectivity.
[/quote]
There are plenty of decisions that are very, very obviously
wrong, and it would be pointless keeping any kind of VAR if
these were just ignored. The Thierry handball vs Ireland being
the most famous one, and arguably one of the reasons why VAR
came along, but I've also seen two this weekend. Crewe's
penalty vs Crawley, was very obviously an error, can understand
why the officials thought it was a penalty real time, but the
keeper clearly played the ball and there was zero contact with
the opponent. Without VAR that could have resulted in a team
unfairly missing out on promotion.
Then later today West Ham were incorrectly awarded a second goal
after Soucek put the ball into the goal using his arm. Can only
assume the officials' views were blocked off, but it was an
absolute, undoubted error to allow the goal. Getting that one
wrong could have even potentially had implications on the title
in the biggest league in the world.
All three of these examples are ones where hundreds of referees
would watch and there wouldn't be a dissenting voice that the
original decision was incorrect. If VAR sticks to these kinds
of interventions it will be fine, they aren't in the slightest
bit subjective, it is where they get involved with decisions
that you can show to a roomful of referees without them all
agreeing that is causing the problems.
[/quote]
You give good examples but they’re a little easy because they’re
so egregious.
VAR will never stick to solely subjective decisions because
ultimately any foul/non-foul and reckless/SFP or missed VC is
inherently and inescapably subjective.
The issue VAR has been wrestling with is the spectrum of too
much/too little involvement. Football (in England particularly)
has really rallied against the ‘light touch’ (“what’s it even
there for!?”) and against the overbearing version (“VAR
shouldn’t be going near that!”)
That’s the balance that VAR has to take, no matter what polish
we put on it.
Real time communication, and in-stadium communication might
appease, but unless we revert to factual only (and I’d argue
that basically kneecaps VAR altogether) then football is going
to have to accept that edge cases exist.
In our training, we know that a decision on the field of play
may not be right, but it’s “not one for VAR”. That’s the
squaring of the circle.
#Post#: 79943--------------------------------------------------
Re: Clubs vote to scrap var(lead by wolves)
DIR By: Marvin Grapevine
Date: May 20, 2024, 3:59 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Affy_Moose link ---
>
>
> You give good examples but they’re a little easy because
they’re so egregious.
>
> VAR will never stick to solely subjective decisions because
ultimately any foul/non-foul and reckless/SFP or missed VC is
inherently and inescapably subjective.
>
> The issue VAR has been wrestling with is the spectrum of too
much/too little involvement. Football (in England particularly)
has really rallied against the ‘light touch’ (“what’s it even
there for!?”) and against the overbearing version (“VAR
shouldn’t be going near that!”)
>
> That’s the balance that VAR has to take, no matter what polish
we put on it.
>
> Real time communication, and in-stadium communication might
appease, but unless we revert to factual only (and I’d argue
that basically kneecaps VAR altogether) then football is going
to have to accept that edge cases exist.
>
> In our training, we know that a decision on the field of play
may not be right, but it’s “not one for VAR”. That’s the
squaring of the circle.
>
--- End Quote ---
As a matchgoing fan VAR hugely increases the sense of injustice
and frustration at officials.
It is the inherent inconsistency of what gets reviewed that
frustrates the most. I was at the Chelsea game yesterday and
Sterling was clearly fouled by Semenyo. It was obvious, he was
clipped, it wasn't a small impact, and yet Taylor did not give
the foul and VAR backed this up. This is what frustrates fans
the most, because there are penalties given on field with
absolutely minimal (if any) contact, think Szoboslai early on
the season / Jota's dive v Newcastle, and VAR backs this up.
It's a total mess.
#Post#: 79949--------------------------------------------------
Re: Clubs vote to scrap var(lead by wolves)
DIR By: Ivanhoe
Date: May 20, 2024, 6:27 am
---------------------------------------------------------
The biggest issue with VAR is that for the fans that attend
matches the raison d'etre is to celebrate your team's goals. The
immediate elation and celebration is what fans pay their money
for.
VAR has taken this away and I don't know many if any fans who
want to keep it.
#Post#: 79952--------------------------------------------------
Re: Clubs vote to scrap var(lead by wolves)
DIR By: Ashington46
Date: May 20, 2024, 8:39 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Ivanhoe link ---
>
> The biggest issue with VAR is that for the fans that attend
matches the raison d'etre is to celebrate your team's goals. The
immediate elation and celebration is what fans pay their money
for.
> VAR has taken this away and I don't know many if any fans who
want to keep it.
>
--- End Quote ---
The fans who actually attend matches at the top level no longer
matter as far as thoe running the game are concerned
Everything is geared to the armchair fan who watches by whatever
means available, on whichever day and time the authorities deem
the match will be played.
So many fans who attend matches have lost money because the
authorities switch the times and days when matches will be
played, sometimes at very short notice. They have often booked
rail travel and accommodation only to find that everything has
changed so TV can cover the match.
They will vote to keep VAR because those paying the piper call
the tune no matter which broadcasting company that is.
#Post#: 79974--------------------------------------------------
Re: Clubs vote to scrap var(lead by wolves)
DIR By: ajb95
Date: May 21, 2024, 6:20 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Ivanhoe link ---
>
> The biggest issue with VAR is that for the fans that attend
matches the raison d'etre is to celebrate your team's goals. The
immediate elation and celebration is what fans pay their money
for.
> VAR has taken this away and I don't know many if any fans who
want to keep it.
>
--- End Quote ---
I was against VAR from the start and I’m even more against it
now. There is also the fact that fans were not consulted about
bringing it in, just like they haven’t been consulted on
scrapping fa cup replays. No enjoyment of emotion watching PL
games at the ground anymore. Also, it Makes a mockery that 20
clubs are doing things completely different to the rest of the
pyramid! Football survived 155 years with referees and
assistants and no technology, so why we need VAR is beyond me
This examples that rusty mentioned in his post I would expect
someone in a team of 4 to have spotted particularly the handball
by Soucek
*****************************************************
Page 3 of 4
DIR Previous Page
DIR Next Page