DIR Return Create A Forum - Home
---------------------------------------------------------
RateTheRef
HTML https://ratetheref.createaforum.com
---------------------------------------------------------
*****************************************************
DIR Return to: General Discussion
*****************************************************
#Post#: 78253--------------------------------------------------
Re: Bournemouth v Man Utd - T Harrington
DIR By: bmb
Date: April 14, 2024, 6:03 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Having had the night to sleep on it & a substantial quantity of
pálinka for medicinal purposes to calm the frayed nerves, I
shall give my opinion now, for what it's worth!
First half I thought was ok. Few 50:50 decisions that
could/should maybe have gone a different way but certainly
nothing that raised the blood pressure. He also played a couple
of lovely advantages. Onto individual incidents:
The Christie penalty shout. There was contact but not enough for
a penalty for me & I think he called that one right. What I
think he did get wrong was booking for simulation - there was
enough contact there for it not to be simulation.
The handball against Smudge. I'm the first to criticise Smudge
for stupidity, he has that element to his game. Not nasty - just
stupid. However this was a terrible decision. He was in the
process of turning, his arm was as close to his side as it could
have been, the ball bounces up from the ground at fairly close
range and hits his arm. This is the sort of scenario the PGMOL
have said should not be given as a penalty. What is Smudge meant
to do with his arms? He couldn't get it any closer to his body,
he had no time to try and lift it out of the way, there was no
movement towards the ball, he was turning, that was the
movement, and he had started doing so before the ball hit the
ground and bounced up and hit him. Never in a month of Sundays
is that a penalty, anywhere, on any pitch or for any team. This
where I have an issue in understanding clear and obvious, if a
decision is incorrect how can it be anything other than clear
and obvious? VAR was bought in to stop these sort of incorrect
decisions - or at least that was the selling point!
The overturned penalty. Laws of the Game (Law 12.3) states "If a
defender starts holding an attacker outside the penalty area and
continues holding inside the penalty area, the referee must
award a penalty kick." The holding started outside the area, it
continued onto the line and then about 2 feet into the penalty
box. There is one angle in particular that shows it clearly
carried on into the box. He got the call right on the pitch and
was let down by VAR, imo. The penalty should have stood.
It wasn't all against AFCB, as pointed out above somewhere there
was a holding I think it was Milos doing the holding, that tuned
into a 6 of one, half a dozen of the other, and he gave the free
kick AFCB's way and I think that was a wrong call. It wasn't a
game changing error though. Smudge should have been booked for
booting the ball away & I seem to recall someone else also
booting the ball away with no action taken.
3 big decisions and my opinion is 2/3 were wrong. Overall I
think he was weak, inconsistent and indecisive. I don't think he
was the correct appointment for this game. He strikes me as a
referee who lacks confidence, he wasn't able to sell decisions
because he looked so unsure. There were some flashes of the
referee he could be capable of but yesterday can only go down as
a very poor day at the office. I don't like to judge a referee's
overall ability on one performance, I think that's unfair, we
can all have that bad day. I should add though for context, this
was the 2nd time he has refereed us, the last time being 2 years
ago and in that game he also gave an incorrect game changing
call against us. I'm still not prepared to write him off
totally, he's inexperienced and still learning so I hope he can
sit down with his coach, whoever that is, take on board the
learning points and use them to grow. I don't believe any ref
makes it this far without having something there to make them
good enough, in this ref's case I've just not seen it first hand
yet.
#Post#: 78255--------------------------------------------------
Re: Bournemouth v Man Utd - T Harrington
DIR By: bmb
Date: April 14, 2024, 6:20 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: DublinRef link ---
>
> [quote author=bmb link=topic=5903.msg78237#msg78237
date=1713051716]
> [quote author=ChippenhamCherry
link=topic=5903.msg78230#msg78230 date=1713044304]
> Woefully inconsistent. Or I suppose you could call it
consistent but all in one direction.
> Not a single booking for Man Utd. They committed more fouls in
the game.
> Christie booked for diving, Mainoo's dive ignored. Cook and
Neto booked for dissent. Fernandes in his face all game, not
booked.
> Not even a booking for Kambwala for the foul that lead to the
overturned penalty (sidenote: since his arms wrapped around
Christie, was it not a holding offence that started outside the
box and continued into the box and therefore should have
remained a penalty?) at the end, even though that was textbook
stopping a promising attack.
> He was poor with the the little stuff too. E.g. Unal penalised
for a light push. Two minutes later he's pushed to the ground,
play on, Utd nearly score. That's what lead to Neto's
understandable dissent.
> As for the Man Utd penalty, it's the very definition of a big
club penalty. There's no way a small club is getting that in
their favour at Old Trafford.
> There are Premier League referees capable of refereeing the
big clubs evenly with the little ones. But some just can't
compute that the game might actually be going in the other
direction than the one they prepped for, that the big club might
be struggling, that the big club might be committing as many
indiscretions as the little one. Tony Harrington very much fell
into that category.
>
--- End Quote ---
This.
However whilst Neto’s dissent was understandable I still didn’t
like to see it. We’re normally better than that.
Very unusual for the anti ref songs to be sung loudly and
continuously at Dean Court. Can’t remember the last time I heard
them. We have one of the most placid crowds going.
[/quote]
Thanks to Chippenhamcherry and bmb for the detailed review of
what sounds like a poor day out for Mr. Harrington. I would be
interested in exploring one point further -
There's no way a small club is getting that in their favour at
Old Trafford.
There are Premier League referees capable of refereeing the big
clubs evenly with the little ones. But some just can't compute
that the game might actually be going in the other direction
than the one they prepped for, that the big club might be
struggling, that the big club might be committing as many
indiscretions as the little one
Now I know on here we cannot (quite rightly) accuse referees of
deliberate bias and I also know that is not what you are
implying here Chippenhamcherry but I wonder what is the cause.
Is it as you perhaps suggest a symptom of over preparing for a
game to the point of prejudging the 'script' so to speak? So far
that subconsciously the referee is expecting the game to go one
way.
Or is it the case that it is not a real affect and that we
simply perceive it to be the case due to confirmation bias? I
believe there are statistics to show that 'bigger' teams playing
at home get more favorable decisions (this is skewed though as
home teams generally have more possession, more time in the
penalty area). I would be interested if there are any statistics
on top six clubs playing away from home.
However, and I am no statistician, but I wonder if something
like penalties per minute played in penalty area would be a more
accurate figure to look for than simply number of penalties
awarded for example.
[/quote]
I certainly don't for a second think there was any deliberate
bias & I have no questions at all regarding his integrity, I
don't personally believe any of our referees to be corrupt or
lacking in integrity.
I wonder if perhaps general speaking is there is "more well
known" element. More people have heard of Man Utd, more people
have watched Man Utd than ever will AFCB. Man Utd are often on
the TV, any fan of football watching games on TV will have seen
them regularly and you get to know what their patterns of play
are, what their strengths are, how they adapt to situations and
things like that (maybe not so much under the current manager as
they have been pretty inconsistent of late but...). As a referee
that must have some effect, you have that picture in your mind
of what you expect to see, who you expect to be the dominant
team, they are the big name, the team always on TV. I think it
might play a part in unconscious bias and that is a difficult
thing to change & not sure how or even if you can do so. I use
visualisation techniques with referees I coach, making them
watch sublime calls over and over again so it's implanted
somewhere in the back of their mind that this is how to deal
with that scenario in the hope that if hey are ever faced with
it, their mind is already telling them this is how to do it
correctly. I understand how powerful that can be so it makes
sense to me that effect can also be attained less consciously by
watching the same teams over and again. Does that make sense?
#Post#: 78256--------------------------------------------------
Re: Bournemouth v Man Utd - T Harrington
DIR By: TheThingFromLewes
Date: April 14, 2024, 6:41 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Harrington did Bournemouth v Watford in lockdown and there was a
mass brawl with Wilshere and Joao Pedro binned in the middle of
it all.
I think he needs a run of games, possibly back in the EFL to get
some rhythm and matches under his belt.
#Post#: 78264--------------------------------------------------
Re: Bournemouth v Man Utd - T Harrington
DIR By: RCG
Date: April 14, 2024, 10:42 am
---------------------------------------------------------
I think the games at the top end of the championship will be
more difficult than some Prem games. I think the choice of games
he does IS the important thing
#Post#: 78268--------------------------------------------------
Re: Bournemouth v Man Utd - T Harrington
DIR By: JMB1992
Date: April 14, 2024, 11:25 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: bmb link ---
>
> [quote author=ChippenhamCherry
link=topic=5903.msg78230#msg78230 date=1713044304]
> Woefully inconsistent. Or I suppose you could call it
consistent but all in one direction.
> Not a single booking for Man Utd. They committed more fouls in
the game.
> Christie booked for diving, Mainoo's dive ignored. Cook and
Neto booked for dissent. Fernandes in his face all game, not
booked.
> Not even a booking for Kambwala for the foul that lead to the
overturned penalty (sidenote: since his arms wrapped around
Christie, was it not a holding offence that started outside the
box and continued into the box and therefore should have
remained a penalty?) at the end, even though that was textbook
stopping a promising attack.
> He was poor with the the little stuff too. E.g. Unal penalised
for a light push. Two minutes later he's pushed to the ground,
play on, Utd nearly score. That's what lead to Neto's
understandable dissent.
> As for the Man Utd penalty, it's the very definition of a big
club penalty. There's no way a small club is getting that in
their favour at Old Trafford.
> There are Premier League referees capable of refereeing the
big clubs evenly with the little ones. But some just can't
compute that the game might actually be going in the other
direction than the one they prepped for, that the big club might
be struggling, that the big club might be committing as many
indiscretions as the little one. Tony Harrington very much fell
into that category.
>
--- End Quote ---
This.
However whilst Neto’s dissent was understandable I still didn’t
like to see it. We’re normally better than that.
Very unusual for the anti ref songs to be sung loudly and
continuously at Dean Court. Can’t remember the last time I heard
them. We have one of the most placid crowds going.
[/quote]
Iraola is one of the worst for dissent and touchline behaviour,
so he’s not “normally better than that”. Just balancing things
up slightly here 👍
#Post#: 78284--------------------------------------------------
Re: Bournemouth v Man Utd - T Harrington
DIR By: Claretman
Date: April 14, 2024, 2:28 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: JMB1992 link ---
>
> [quote author=bmb link=topic=5903.msg78237#msg78237
date=1713051716]
> [quote author=ChippenhamCherry
link=topic=5903.msg78230#msg78230 date=1713044304]
> Woefully inconsistent. Or I suppose you could call it
consistent but all in one direction.
> Not a single booking for Man Utd. They committed more fouls in
the game.
> Christie booked for diving, Mainoo's dive ignored. Cook and
Neto booked for dissent. Fernandes in his face all game, not
booked.
> Not even a booking for Kambwala for the foul that lead to the
overturned penalty (sidenote: since his arms wrapped around
Christie, was it not a holding offence that started outside the
box and continued into the box and therefore should have
remained a penalty?) at the end, even though that was textbook
stopping a promising attack.
> He was poor with the the little stuff too. E.g. Unal penalised
for a light push. Two minutes later he's pushed to the ground,
play on, Utd nearly score. That's what lead to Neto's
understandable dissent.
> As for the Man Utd penalty, it's the very definition of a big
club penalty. There's no way a small club is getting that in
their favour at Old Trafford.
> There are Premier League referees capable of refereeing the
big clubs evenly with the little ones. But some just can't
compute that the game might actually be going in the other
direction than the one they prepped for, that the big club might
be struggling, that the big club might be committing as many
indiscretions as the little one. Tony Harrington very much fell
into that category.
>
--- End Quote ---
This.
However whilst Neto’s dissent was understandable I still didn’t
like to see it. We’re normally better than that.
Very unusual for the anti ref songs to be sung loudly and
continuously at Dean Court. Can’t remember the last time I heard
them. We have one of the most placid crowds going.
[/quote]
Iraola is one of the worst for dissent and touchline behaviour,
so he’s not “normally better than that”. Just balancing things
up slightly here 👍
[/quote]
How does saying something that is incorrect balance things up?
#Post#: 78306--------------------------------------------------
Re: Bournemouth v Man Utd - T Harrington
DIR By: ChippenhamCherry
Date: April 15, 2024, 9:35 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: JMB1992 link ---
>
> [quote author=bmb link=topic=5903.msg78237#msg78237
date=1713051716]
> [quote author=ChippenhamCherry
link=topic=5903.msg78230#msg78230 date=1713044304]
> Woefully inconsistent. Or I suppose you could call it
consistent but all in one direction.
> Not a single booking for Man Utd. They committed more fouls in
the game.
> Christie booked for diving, Mainoo's dive ignored. Cook and
Neto booked for dissent. Fernandes in his face all game, not
booked.
> Not even a booking for Kambwala for the foul that lead to the
overturned penalty (sidenote: since his arms wrapped around
Christie, was it not a holding offence that started outside the
box and continued into the box and therefore should have
remained a penalty?) at the end, even though that was textbook
stopping a promising attack.
> He was poor with the the little stuff too. E.g. Unal penalised
for a light push. Two minutes later he's pushed to the ground,
play on, Utd nearly score. That's what lead to Neto's
understandable dissent.
> As for the Man Utd penalty, it's the very definition of a big
club penalty. There's no way a small club is getting that in
their favour at Old Trafford.
> There are Premier League referees capable of refereeing the
big clubs evenly with the little ones. But some just can't
compute that the game might actually be going in the other
direction than the one they prepped for, that the big club might
be struggling, that the big club might be committing as many
indiscretions as the little one. Tony Harrington very much fell
into that category.
>
--- End Quote ---
This.
However whilst Neto’s dissent was understandable I still didn’t
like to see it. We’re normally better than that.
Very unusual for the anti ref songs to be sung loudly and
continuously at Dean Court. Can’t remember the last time I heard
them. We have one of the most placid crowds going.
[/quote]
Iraola is one of the worst for dissent and touchline behaviour,
so he’s not “normally better than that”. Just balancing things
up slightly here 👍
[/quote]
He's hardly one of the worst. He was booked a few times early on
for the waving an imaginary card gesture, which is a very
continental thing he admitted he needed to learn his way out of.
And as dissent goes thats not exactly the worst thing in the
world. It's strange that we've decided that particular gesture
needs immediate non-negotiable punishment when other far worse
dissent can just been "managed".
#Post#: 78343--------------------------------------------------
Re: Bournemouth v Man Utd - T Harrington
DIR By: Readingfan
Date: April 16, 2024, 12:08 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Dale Johnson thinks both VAR decisions will be supported.
He thinks handball was very harsh but as on-field decision holds
weight there was not enough for VAR to say it was wrong.
He says foul at end was not holding offence but
tripping/blocking and first point of contact outside area.
#Post#: 78357--------------------------------------------------
Re: Bournemouth v Man Utd - T Harrington
DIR By: Claretman
Date: April 16, 2024, 4:46 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Readingfan link ---
>
> Dale Johnson thinks both VAR decisions will be supported.
>
> He thinks handball was very harsh but as on-field decision
holds weight there was not enough for VAR to say it was wrong.
>
> He says foul at end was not holding offence but
tripping/blocking and first point of contact outside area.
>
--- End Quote ---
Dermot confirmed similar on ref watch.
He said the ref thought Smith turned making himself bigger, but
i would say it was a natural movement.
He said Harrington fed thru to var he gave the penalty which was
overturned for the trip, here i would say he was poss too quick
on the whistle unlike Tierney at Chelsea last night.
#Post#: 78388--------------------------------------------------
Re: Bournemouth v Man Utd - T Harrington
DIR By: DublinRef
Date: April 16, 2024, 3:35 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: bmb link ---
>
> [quote author=DublinRef link=topic=5903.msg78250#msg78250
date=1713090572]
> [quote author=bmb link=topic=5903.msg78237#msg78237
date=1713051716]
> [quote author=ChippenhamCherry
link=topic=5903.msg78230#msg78230 date=1713044304]
> Woefully inconsistent. Or I suppose you could call it
consistent but all in one direction.
> Not a single booking for Man Utd. They committed more fouls in
the game.
> Christie booked for diving, Mainoo's dive ignored. Cook and
Neto booked for dissent. Fernandes in his face all game, not
booked.
> Not even a booking for Kambwala for the foul that lead to the
overturned penalty (sidenote: since his arms wrapped around
Christie, was it not a holding offence that started outside the
box and continued into the box and therefore should have
remained a penalty?) at the end, even though that was textbook
stopping a promising attack.
> He was poor with the the little stuff too. E.g. Unal penalised
for a light push. Two minutes later he's pushed to the ground,
play on, Utd nearly score. That's what lead to Neto's
understandable dissent.
> As for the Man Utd penalty, it's the very definition of a big
club penalty. There's no way a small club is getting that in
their favour at Old Trafford.
> There are Premier League referees capable of refereeing the
big clubs evenly with the little ones. But some just can't
compute that the game might actually be going in the other
direction than the one they prepped for, that the big club might
be struggling, that the big club might be committing as many
indiscretions as the little one. Tony Harrington very much fell
into that category.
>
--- End Quote ---
This.
However whilst Neto’s dissent was understandable I still didn’t
like to see it. We’re normally better than that.
Very unusual for the anti ref songs to be sung loudly and
continuously at Dean Court. Can’t remember the last time I heard
them. We have one of the most placid crowds going.
[/quote]
Thanks to Chippenhamcherry and bmb for the detailed review of
what sounds like a poor day out for Mr. Harrington. I would be
interested in exploring one point further -
There's no way a small club is getting that in their favour at
Old Trafford.
There are Premier League referees capable of refereeing the big
clubs evenly with the little ones. But some just can't compute
that the game might actually be going in the other direction
than the one they prepped for, that the big club might be
struggling, that the big club might be committing as many
indiscretions as the little one
Now I know on here we cannot (quite rightly) accuse referees of
deliberate bias and I also know that is not what you are
implying here Chippenhamcherry but I wonder what is the cause.
Is it as you perhaps suggest a symptom of over preparing for a
game to the point of prejudging the 'script' so to speak? So far
that subconsciously the referee is expecting the game to go one
way.
Or is it the case that it is not a real affect and that we
simply perceive it to be the case due to confirmation bias? I
believe there are statistics to show that 'bigger' teams playing
at home get more favorable decisions (this is skewed though as
home teams generally have more possession, more time in the
penalty area). I would be interested if there are any statistics
on top six clubs playing away from home.
However, and I am no statistician, but I wonder if something
like penalties per minute played in penalty area would be a more
accurate figure to look for than simply number of penalties
awarded for example.
[/quote]
I certainly don't for a second think there was any deliberate
bias & I have no questions at all regarding his integrity, I
don't personally believe any of our referees to be corrupt or
lacking in integrity.
I wonder if perhaps general speaking is there is "more well
known" element. More people have heard of Man Utd, more people
have watched Man Utd than ever will AFCB. Man Utd are often on
the TV, any fan of football watching games on TV will have seen
them regularly and you get to know what their patterns of play
are, what their strengths are, how they adapt to situations and
things like that (maybe not so much under the current manager as
they have been pretty inconsistent of late but...). As a referee
that must have some effect, you have that picture in your mind
of what you expect to see, who you expect to be the dominant
team, they are the big name, the team always on TV. I think it
might play a part in unconscious bias and that is a difficult
thing to change & not sure how or even if you can do so. I use
visualisation techniques with referees I coach, making them
watch sublime calls over and over again so it's implanted
somewhere in the back of their mind that this is how to deal
with that scenario in the hope that if hey are ever faced with
it, their mind is already telling them this is how to do it
correctly. I understand how powerful that can be so it makes
sense to me that effect can also be attained less consciously by
watching the same teams over and again. Does that make sense?
[/quote]
Many thanks for the insightful post bmb, what you are saying
absolutely makes sense to me. I was thinking a bit more however
about how one could prove effect this statistically and really
it is never fully possible I think. Well maybe it is but I think
need a very large sample of games.
Regardless of quantitative proof though, I do think your point
is worth considering - how do we prevent this though? And
equally, how do we prevent the opposite happening i.e. a
refereeing trying subconsciously to show they are not biased and
going the other way.
One thing I think we can all agree on though - these are great
challenges for even the very best referees to overcome!
*****************************************************
Page 4 of 4
DIR Previous Page