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#Post#: 69739--------------------------------------------------
Scott Jackson Stevenage v Port Vale
DIR By: Jake the Peg
Date: October 22, 2023, 3:23 am
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Any views on this non-penalty
HTML https://twitter.com/Tom_Amos/status/1715774827687010742/mediaViewer?currentTweet=1715774827687010742¤tTweetUser=Tom_Amos&mode=profile
#Post#: 69741--------------------------------------------------
Re: Scott Jackson Stevenage v Port Vale
DIR By: takethejag
Date: October 22, 2023, 3:45 am
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Probably not to be honest as the link doesn't work
#Post#: 69745--------------------------------------------------
Re: Scott Jackson Stevenage v Port Vale
DIR By: Guidedog
Date: October 22, 2023, 4:54 am
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I’ve seen it elsewhere, can only think he was unsighted and AR
let him down, but would like to know. Maybe AR’s were instructed
not to get involved with penalty decisions ?
#Post#: 69748--------------------------------------------------
Re: Scott Jackson Stevenage v Port Vale
DIR By: Jake the Peg
Date: October 22, 2023, 6:36 am
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--- Quote from: takethejag link ---
>
> Probably not to be honest as the link doesn't work
>
--- End Quote ---
Worked on my phone? Try this
HTML https://twitter.com/Tom_Amos/status/1715774827687010742?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1715784679578550777%7Ctwgr%5Ee5aa663c0b519779e90f8caa37ef9c60e84ba223%7Ctwcon%5Es2_&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.onevalefan.co.uk%2Fforum%2Findex.php%3Fapp%3Dcoremodule%3Dsystemcontroller%3Dembedurl%3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fx.com%2Fportlyvale%2Fstatus%2F1715784679578550777%3Fs%3D4626t%3DAG0DDsGOVkGEHlGHUYdGZA
#Post#: 69750--------------------------------------------------
Re: Scott Jackson Stevenage v Port Vale
DIR By: Leggy
Date: October 22, 2023, 6:56 am
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There have been a number of threads this weekend where the
willingness of the ARs to intervene where they are in a position
to help the referee has been questioned. It is a long time
since I refereed at any decent level and had the benefit of
neutral ARs, but I always emphasised the need to work as a team
and ensure that - as a team - we got the right decision.
Fast forward to 2023: What instructions are given to today's
top level ARs in this regard? I have no evidence, but do
suspect that some of the referees to not want ARs for overtly
intervening (i.e. flagging) for anything other than ball in/out
of play, direction of restart and offside. I do appreciate that
the comms allows ongoing verbal communication but if this is how
teamwork is taking place today the uneducated need to be made
aware. Either though a future Howard Webb / Michael Owen
programme or by ARs flagging (where appropriate) to support the
communications that have taken place.
I'd welcome contributions from those who are more "in the know"
than me.
#Post#: 69751--------------------------------------------------
Re: Scott Jackson Stevenage v Port Vale
DIR By: RefGod
Date: October 22, 2023, 7:19 am
---------------------------------------------------------
There is no way ARs at Step 1 and above with comms are flagging
for that. I would question why an AR is flagging for that at any
level for that matter. Whilst the referee may have cut the other
officials out pre-match on penalties, if he was blindsided, I
would understand why no one else was willing to get involved.
Maybe selfish but if it's judged wrong then you're killing your
own season alongside the referee. The entire team won't be
penalised because that's the referee's decision to make.
It's a clear penalty.
#Post#: 69757--------------------------------------------------
Re: Scott Jackson Stevenage v Port Vale
DIR By: rustyref
Date: October 22, 2023, 9:19 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Leggy link ---
>
> There have been a number of threads this weekend where the
willingness of the ARs to intervene where they are in a position
to help the referee has been questioned. It is a long time
since I refereed at any decent level and had the benefit of
neutral ARs, but I always emphasised the need to work as a team
and ensure that - as a team - we got the right decision.
>
> Fast forward to 2023: What instructions are given to today's
top level ARs in this regard? I have no evidence, but do
suspect that some of the referees to not want ARs for overtly
intervening (i.e. flagging) for anything other than ball in/out
of play, direction of restart and offside. I do appreciate that
the comms allows ongoing verbal communication but if this is how
teamwork is taking place today the uneducated need to be made
aware. Either though a future Howard Webb / Michael Owen
programme or by ARs flagging (where appropriate) to support the
communications that have taken place.
>
> I'd welcome contributions from those who are more "in the
know" than me.
>
--- End Quote ---
Don't really think instructions have changed much in decades,
ARs still get involved in decisions in their credible area. The
difference at the top levels now they can get involved in
decisions out of their credible area without drawing attention
to themselves by using comms. Pre-comms there is no way on
earth an AR is flagging for a penalty there, it just wouldn't be
in any way credible. Now they can at least say something like
"are you sure about that Scott" and they can have a chat without
anyone really knowing the referee is getting information from
somewhere else.
My instructions when at L3 for penalties were always the pretty
standard "I've seen it and given it so don't get involved, I've
seen it and turned it down so don't get involved, or I'm staring
at you and asking for help. Caveat to this is if I've dropped
an absolute clanger and every other person in this ground knows
I'm wrong, in which case get involved". Don't remember
instructions from L2As when I lined on Conference / National
League having been too much different, just not all added the
caveat of bailing out if they've dropped a clanger.
Worth adding that there's a clip from a different angle on a
Facebook refereeing group, and the view is pretty much 50/50 as
to whether it is a penalty. The logic for those seeing no being
that the ball hits the attacker's heel and significantly changes
direction, the attacker then moves into the path of the defender
who has already committed to a tackle towards where the ball was
originally going.
#Post#: 69764--------------------------------------------------
Re: Scott Jackson Stevenage v Port Vale
DIR By: RefGod
Date: October 22, 2023, 10:25 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: rustyref link ---
>
> [quote author=Leggy link=topic=5305.msg69750#msg69750
date=1697975805]
> There have been a number of threads this weekend where the
willingness of the ARs to intervene where they are in a position
to help the referee has been questioned. It is a long time
since I refereed at any decent level and had the benefit of
neutral ARs, but I always emphasised the need to work as a team
and ensure that - as a team - we got the right decision.
>
> Fast forward to 2023: What instructions are given to today's
top level ARs in this regard? I have no evidence, but do
suspect that some of the referees to not want ARs for overtly
intervening (i.e. flagging) for anything other than ball in/out
of play, direction of restart and offside. I do appreciate that
the comms allows ongoing verbal communication but if this is how
teamwork is taking place today the uneducated need to be made
aware. Either though a future Howard Webb / Michael Owen
programme or by ARs flagging (where appropriate) to support the
communications that have taken place.
>
> I'd welcome contributions from those who are more "in the
know" than me.
>
--- End Quote ---
Don't really think instructions have changed much in decades,
ARs still get involved in decisions in their credible area. The
difference at the top levels now they can get involved in
decisions out of their credible area without drawing attention
to themselves by using comms. Pre-comms there is no way on
earth an AR is flagging for a penalty there, it just wouldn't be
in any way credible. Now they can at least say something like
"are you sure about that Scott" and they can have a chat without
anyone really knowing the referee is getting information from
somewhere else.
My instructions when at L3 for penalties were always the pretty
standard "I've seen it and given it so don't get involved, I've
seen it and turned it down so don't get involved, or I'm staring
at you and asking for help. Caveat to this is if I've dropped
an absolute clanger and every other person in this ground knows
I'm wrong, in which case get involved". Don't remember
instructions from L2As when I lined on Conference / National
League having been too much different, just not all added the
caveat of bailing out if they've dropped a clanger.
Worth adding that there's a clip from a different angle on a
Facebook refereeing group, and the view is pretty much 50/50 as
to whether it is a penalty. The logic for those seeing no being
that the ball hits the attacker's heel and significantly changes
direction, the attacker then moves into the path of the defender
who has already committed to a tackle towards where the ball was
originally going.
[/quote]
If an official at that level is asking are you sure about that
Scott? over comms on a penalty appeal l, I'd expect to find them
on the portal as an example of poor practice. That's worse than
remaining silent.
#Post#: 69770--------------------------------------------------
Re: Scott Jackson Stevenage v Port Vale
DIR By: rustyref
Date: October 22, 2023, 11:23 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: RefGod link ---
>
> [quote author=rustyref link=topic=5305.msg69757#msg69757
date=1697984350]
> [quote author=Leggy link=topic=5305.msg69750#msg69750
date=1697975805]
> There have been a number of threads this weekend where the
willingness of the ARs to intervene where they are in a position
to help the referee has been questioned. It is a long time
since I refereed at any decent level and had the benefit of
neutral ARs, but I always emphasised the need to work as a team
and ensure that - as a team - we got the right decision.
>
> Fast forward to 2023: What instructions are given to today's
top level ARs in this regard? I have no evidence, but do
suspect that some of the referees to not want ARs for overtly
intervening (i.e. flagging) for anything other than ball in/out
of play, direction of restart and offside. I do appreciate that
the comms allows ongoing verbal communication but if this is how
teamwork is taking place today the uneducated need to be made
aware. Either though a future Howard Webb / Michael Owen
programme or by ARs flagging (where appropriate) to support the
communications that have taken place.
>
> I'd welcome contributions from those who are more "in the
know" than me.
>
--- End Quote ---
Don't really think instructions have changed much in decades,
ARs still get involved in decisions in their credible area. The
difference at the top levels now they can get involved in
decisions out of their credible area without drawing attention
to themselves by using comms. Pre-comms there is no way on
earth an AR is flagging for a penalty there, it just wouldn't be
in any way credible. Now they can at least say something like
"are you sure about that Scott" and they can have a chat without
anyone really knowing the referee is getting information from
somewhere else.
My instructions when at L3 for penalties were always the pretty
standard "I've seen it and given it so don't get involved, I've
seen it and turned it down so don't get involved, or I'm staring
at you and asking for help. Caveat to this is if I've dropped
an absolute clanger and every other person in this ground knows
I'm wrong, in which case get involved". Don't remember
instructions from L2As when I lined on Conference / National
League having been too much different, just not all added the
caveat of bailing out if they've dropped a clanger.
Worth adding that there's a clip from a different angle on a
Facebook refereeing group, and the view is pretty much 50/50 as
to whether it is a penalty. The logic for those seeing no being
that the ball hits the attacker's heel and significantly changes
direction, the attacker then moves into the path of the defender
who has already committed to a tackle towards where the ball was
originally going.
[/quote]
If an official at that level is asking are you sure about that
Scott? over comms on a penalty appeal l, I'd expect to find them
on the portal as an example of poor practice. That's worse than
remaining silent.
[/quote]
Fair point, it would be more specific, point I was making is
they can offer input without anyone knowing.
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