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#Post#: 69258--------------------------------------------------
Re: M OLIVER - Arsenal v Man City
DIR By: Acme Thunderer
Date: October 9, 2023, 3:08 am
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The MOTD pundits suggested that it was 'good management' not to
produce a 2nd yellow card but I cannot agree. The offence fully
justified a second yellow and it was definitely not a case of
'last chance saloon'. Consistency is needed, and Oliver, along
with Taylor and (it seems from RTR) Bankes, have not applied the
laws as they should be.
#Post#: 69259--------------------------------------------------
Re: M OLIVER - Arsenal v Man City
DIR By: Whistleblower
Date: October 9, 2023, 3:15 am
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Peter Walton in the Times today saying it was clearly a second
yellow card and should therefore be a red
#Post#: 69262--------------------------------------------------
Re: M OLIVER - Arsenal v Man City
DIR By: Failed Ref
Date: October 9, 2023, 3:36 am
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Mark Clattenburg feels that a second yellow should have been
given but acknowledges that game management was the reason it
wasn't.
Linking the Gillett card for dissent this weekend, is it any
wonder player, managers and fans are confused. At the start of
the season there was a directive to clamp down on dissent and
time wasting but contrastingly referees encouraged to let the
game flow. Factor in the vague concept of game management which
referees appear to interpret differently, is it any wonder there
is confusion?
#Post#: 69265--------------------------------------------------
Re: M OLIVER - Arsenal v Man City
DIR By: Shy Talk
Date: October 9, 2023, 4:30 am
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IMHO there is no place in football for so-called "game
management". A foul is a foul is a foul, whoever wherever and
whenever it is committed and should be sanctioned according to
LOTG.
To do otherwise is surely as big a compromise of sporting
integrity as you could imagine.
#Post#: 69266--------------------------------------------------
Re: M OLIVER - Arsenal v Man City
DIR By: Marvin Grapevine
Date: October 9, 2023, 4:57 am
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--- Quote from: Adam link ---
>
>
> The consistency in PGMOL is awful in relation to SFP. Out of
the Gusto, Jones and Kovacic tackles, this one is debatably the
worst. If Gusto and Jones are going to be sent off due to an
OFR, I don't see why Kovacic should be exempt. Brooks has failed
to act in line with the other decisions that PGMOL and the FA
have backed and therefore I believe if repercussions are being
felt by Oliver for missing the 2YC then Brooks should at least
be looked at for this.
>
--- End Quote ---
This is the key issue. It's incredibly frustrating to have a
situation where the player doesn't get the ball (unlike Jones
and Gusto), is tackling from behind (unlike Jones and Gusto) and
also forces the ankle to bend yet he escapes a red card.
It's precisely those reasons that make VAR unworkable for
subjective fouls. Ultimately it's a subjective decision, and
that's the problem. VAR cannot work as it simply adds another
layer of subjectivity to an already subjective process, and in
doing so makes it seem much *more* unfair to the fans.
#Post#: 69273--------------------------------------------------
Re: M OLIVER - Arsenal v Man City
DIR By: JohnCoyle
Date: October 9, 2023, 6:57 am
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For me, the first card was Orange. I can accept a yellow card
but at the same time the offender is then on a final warning.
The foul on Rice should have brought about a second yellow and a
red.
#Post#: 69274--------------------------------------------------
Re: M OLIVER - Arsenal v Man City
DIR By: bmb
Date: October 9, 2023, 7:36 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Scally Bob link ---
>
> I think it’s dangerous ground to suggest that visits to the
UAE by officials and decisions in games have any connection.
It’s unfounded speculation for conspiracy theorists, nothing
more. That said I think PGMOL’s corporate governance is weak on
this. In my line of work extra-curricular paid activities
(including refereeing even though my job-unfortunately-was
nothing to do with football) had to be declared and sanctioned.
Had I suggested that in my spare time I was going to be
remunerated for doing the same job for the owners of a business
involved in the same industry I have no doubt that would have
been rejected as a clear conflict of interest. No matter the
integrity of anyone involved the answer would simply have been
no because of how it looks from the outside.
>
> The rumours of Saudis wanting to recruit referees from the
Premier League seem quite recent and maybe Middle Eastern
moonlighting pre-dates that but perhaps PGMOL will now be
nervous about stopping these trips in case it persuades
officials to take up lucrative contracts elsewhere.
>
--- End Quote ---
The Saudi and UAE leagues have foreign based referees every
matchday. Check on any given week and there will be referees
from Hungary, Romania, Slovakia, Poland, France, Germany, the
Netherlands, the UK, Belgium etc. All done with the sanction of
UEFA as well as the respective Federations. Only been happening
with English referees for 2 season but other Federations it's
been going on 10+ years.
Michael Oliver refereed in the Saudi Pro League 18 April with
Stuart Burt, Simon Bennett and Darren England. Looking back at
the appointments the week after - England was replaced as
referee on Leicester v Wolves by Andy Madley & instead did VAR
on Palace v Everton (22nd) while Michael Oliver refereed
Liverpool v Nottingham Forest with Burt as AR1 & Bennet wasn't
out until 23rd. A far better gap between games. 4 & 5 days
respectively.
Personally I have no problem with them refereeing in either as
long as the PGMOL use common sense and don't put them on any
game in any capacity in the UK for a minimum of 48 hours as per
UEFA rules, or more ideally 72 hours as per FIFA's preference.
#Post#: 69277--------------------------------------------------
Re: M OLIVER - Arsenal v Man City
DIR By: Craven
Date: October 9, 2023, 8:24 am
---------------------------------------------------------
What is all this ‘game management’ nonsense? If that’s the real
reason Oliver didn’t send him off (I’m not saying it is, but
been mooted in more than one place) then he should be utterly
embarrassed today. I can’t believe anyone even accepts ‘game
management’ in situations like this is even a thing. But it’s
obviously going on as Clattenburg has mentioned it.
So, a tackle that is worthy of a second yellow, isn’t given
because it’s a massive game between Arsenal and Man City and the
ref wants to keep 22 players on the pitch. But that same ref
could be doing Accrington Stanley v Sutton the next week, and
give a second yellow for exactly the same tackle because it’s
ONLY Accrington Stanley v Sutton. That’s basically what we’re
(Clattenburg and others) are saying here.
That’s an absolutely atrocious attitude towards refereeing. No
wonder people think there’s a big club bias from refs….and
they’re right!
#Post#: 69292--------------------------------------------------
Re: M OLIVER - Arsenal v Man City
DIR By: Rory Stride
Date: October 9, 2023, 10:38 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: bmb link ---
>
> [quote author=Scally Bob link=topic=5274.msg69255#msg69255
date=1696821439]
> I think it’s dangerous ground to suggest that visits to the
UAE by officials and decisions in games have any connection.
It’s unfounded speculation for conspiracy theorists, nothing
more. That said I think PGMOL’s corporate governance is weak on
this. In my line of work extra-curricular paid activities
(including refereeing even though my job-unfortunately-was
nothing to do with football) had to be declared and sanctioned.
Had I suggested that in my spare time I was going to be
remunerated for doing the same job for the owners of a business
involved in the same industry I have no doubt that would have
been rejected as a clear conflict of interest. No matter the
integrity of anyone involved the answer would simply have been
no because of how it looks from the outside.
>
> The rumours of Saudis wanting to recruit referees from the
Premier League seem quite recent and maybe Middle Eastern
moonlighting pre-dates that but perhaps PGMOL will now be
nervous about stopping these trips in case it persuades
officials to take up lucrative contracts elsewhere.
>
--- End Quote ---
Michael Oliver refereed in the Saudi Pro League 18 April with
Stuart Burt, Simon Bennett and Darren England. Looking back at
the appointments the week after - England was replaced as
referee on Leicester v Wolves by Andy Madley & instead did VAR
on Palace v Everton (22nd) while Michael Oliver refereed
Liverpool v Nottingham Forest with Burt as AR1 & Bennet wasn't
out until 23rd. A far better gap between games. 4 & 5 days
respectively.
[/quote]
England vs replaced on that game if I remember correctly because
the PGMOL put him on two Leicester games in a row for no reason
at all. That was also the last match that Michael Oliver did
with Simon Bennett.
#Post#: 69293--------------------------------------------------
Re: M OLIVER - Arsenal v Man City
DIR By: Rory Stride
Date: October 9, 2023, 10:39 am
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So people are letting Oliver and Bankes off for showing good
game management, yet the same people where praising Hooper for
sticking closely to the laws and showing no management at all.
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