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#Post#: 64450--------------------------------------------------
Re: J BROOKS: LIVERPOOL V VILLA
DIR By: Scally Bob
Date: May 21, 2023, 4:27 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Villa achieved what they wanted by continually breaking up play
with delayed restarts and feigned injuries. Throwing a few
yellows around in the dying minutes is hardly managing it.
The Law regarding offside wasn’t applied in the same way in
Fulham v Palace where a player offside when the ball was played
by a teammate scored after it had hit the shin of a Fulham
player who was in a crowd of players and didn’t play the ball
intentionally.
#Post#: 64453--------------------------------------------------
Re: J BROOKS: LIVERPOOL V VILLA
DIR By: Leggy
Date: May 21, 2023, 5:09 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Hertsref123 link ---
>
> [quote author=jacksamuel21 link=topic=4929.msg64425#msg64425
date=1684608072]
> Liverpool vs Villa has seen some dreadful referee performances
in the last few seasons.
>
> Moss @Villa Park Last Season
> Attwell @Anfield Last Year
> Atkinson and Tierney both had poor performances in 2020 too
>
> Its one of those games like Spurs vs Chelsea and Liverpool vs
Spurs.
>
>
>
> I just don't see how Konsa didn't deliberately play it, he
clearly moves his leg
>
>
>
>
>
>
> [quote author=Scally Bob link=topic=4929.msg64420#msg64420
date=1684604237]
> [quote author=rustyref link=topic=4929.msg64418#msg64418
date=1684603408]
> [quote author=Scally Bob link=topic=4929.msg64416#msg64416
date=1684603164]
> [quote author=Adam link=topic=4929.msg64405#msg64405
date=1684592834]
> That is an absolutely brilliant on field call to give Villa a
penalty. My whole house watching and the whole of Anfield
thought Konate won the ball but he hadn't. Great work!
>
--- End Quote ---
In my seat at Anfield I and everybody around me knew it was a
penalty and our only complaint was Konate’s poor positioning
which caused him to make a rash challenge.
When did referees start going to the monitor to check offsides?
I must have missed that update.
[/quote]
When it isn't black and white and there has to be a subjective
decision made as to whether the player had interfered with play
or an opponent. Has happened a few times.
[/quote]
As I was at the game I’ll see what the television shows me. I’d
be interested to see what excuse was concocted for the SFP by
Mings.
I hope Mr. Webb is going to instruct his charges to deal with
timewasting properly as well. Not quite as bad as Newcastle but
atrocious nonetheless. The Villa goalkeeper was wasting time
from the start, why wait 76 minutes to apply Law? The blizzard
of late yellows for Villa was pointless-do it earlier.
[/quote]
They Yellow Card for Martinez was pointless. He was never going
to get a second yellow no longer how much time he took.
[/quote]
He’d still have been criticised for not booking him though.
[/quote]
The late, token caution for time wasting is 100% ineffective -
mostly because everyone (including the time-waster) knows that
no referee is going to make the headlines by issuing a second
yellow card for the same time-wasting, however justified.
There needs to be a different sanction - one that impacts the
team wasting time at the time that it happens.
On a similar theme, no referee is going to penalise a
goal-keeper for exceeding the permitted six seconds while
holding the ball. Part of the reason for this (which I get) is
that organising an indirect free-kick in the defending penalty
area is a nightmare and to be avoided at all costs. But when we
see goal-keepers "using" upwards of 25 seconds before releasing
the ball into play something really does need to be done as 25
seconds is 0.5% of a full 90 minutes ..... do that four times in
a game and you have chopped off 2% out of the game. Perhaps if
fans were given a 2% refund on their admission fees and (more
significantly) TV companies given a 2% refund on their fees it
might motivate the teams, leagues and governing bodies to do
something about it.
(EDIT- I presume this was meant to be your comment, please make
sure you use the quote box correctly)
#Post#: 64461--------------------------------------------------
Re: J BROOKS: LIVERPOOL V VILLA
DIR By: Claretman
Date: May 21, 2023, 7:16 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Leggy link ---
>
> [quote author=Hertsref123 link=topic=4929.msg64426#msg64426
date=1684610137]
> [quote author=jacksamuel21 link=topic=4929.msg64425#msg64425
date=1684608072]
> Liverpool vs Villa has seen some dreadful referee performances
in the last few seasons.
>
> Moss @Villa Park Last Season
> Attwell @Anfield Last Year
> Atkinson and Tierney both had poor performances in 2020 too
>
> Its one of those games like Spurs vs Chelsea and Liverpool vs
Spurs.
>
>
>
> I just don't see how Konsa didn't deliberately play it, he
clearly moves his leg
>
>
>
>
>
>
> [quote author=Scally Bob link=topic=4929.msg64420#msg64420
date=1684604237]
> [quote author=rustyref link=topic=4929.msg64418#msg64418
date=1684603408]
> [quote author=Scally Bob link=topic=4929.msg64416#msg64416
date=1684603164]
> [quote author=Adam link=topic=4929.msg64405#msg64405
date=1684592834]
> That is an absolutely brilliant on field call to give Villa a
penalty. My whole house watching and the whole of Anfield
thought Konate won the ball but he hadn't. Great work!
>
--- End Quote ---
In my seat at Anfield I and everybody around me knew it was a
penalty and our only complaint was Konate’s poor positioning
which caused him to make a rash challenge.
When did referees start going to the monitor to check offsides?
I must have missed that update.
[/quote]
When it isn't black and white and there has to be a subjective
decision made as to whether the player had interfered with play
or an opponent. Has happened a few times.
[/quote]
As I was at the game I’ll see what the television shows me. I’d
be interested to see what excuse was concocted for the SFP by
Mings.
I hope Mr. Webb is going to instruct his charges to deal with
timewasting properly as well. Not quite as bad as Newcastle but
atrocious nonetheless. The Villa goalkeeper was wasting time
from the start, why wait 76 minutes to apply Law? The blizzard
of late yellows for Villa was pointless-do it earlier.
[/quote]
They Yellow Card for Martinez was pointless. He was never going
to get a second yellow no longer how much time he took.
[/quote]
He’d still have been criticised for not booking him though.
[/quote]
The late, token caution for time wasting is 100% ineffective -
mostly because everyone (including the time-waster) knows that
no referee is going to make the headlines by issuing a second
yellow card for the same time-wasting, however justified.
There needs to be a different sanction - one that impacts the
team wasting time at the time that it happens.
On a similar theme, no referee is going to penalise a
goal-keeper for exceeding the permitted six seconds while
holding the ball. Part of the reason for this (which I get) is
that organising an indirect free-kick in the defending penalty
area is a nightmare and to be avoided at all costs. But when we
see goal-keepers "using" upwards of 25 seconds before releasing
the ball into play something really does need to be done as 25
seconds is 0.5% of a full 90 minutes ..... do that four times in
a game and you have chopped off 2% out of the game. Perhaps if
fans were given a 2% refund on their admission fees and (more
significantly) TV companies given a 2% refund on their fees it
might motivate the teams, leagues and governing bodies to do
something about it.
(EDIT- I presume this was meant to be your comment, please make
sure you use the quote box correctly)
[/quote]
Sin bins ie 10 mins off the field of play could be an idea to
stop time wasting, but then the poor referee would be accused of
favouring one side i guess.
#Post#: 64512--------------------------------------------------
Re: J BROOKS: LIVERPOOL V VILLA
DIR By: Scally Bob
Date: May 22, 2023, 7:52 am
---------------------------------------------------------
I just watched the disallowed goal again.
If the Villa defender had used his arm in the same way as he
used his leg in that situation it would be a penalty kick. I
know it’s not what applies to offside but he has made his
silhouette bigger to make contact with the ball. I don’t
understand how that can be considered not deliberate.
My understanding is that an unintended touch off a defender
doesn’t reset the phase of play but in my opinion the defender
in this situation has deliberately played the ball to stop it
going across the goal as would any defender in that position.
#Post#: 64520--------------------------------------------------
Re: J BROOKS: LIVERPOOL V VILLA
DIR By: Readingfan
Date: May 22, 2023, 10:04 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Scally Bob link ---
>
> I just watched the disallowed goal again.
>
> If the Villa defender had used his arm in the same way as he
used his leg in that situation it would be a penalty kick. I
know it’s not what applies to offside but he has made his
silhouette bigger to make contact with the ball. I don’t
understand how that can be considered not deliberate.
>
> My understanding is that an unintended touch off a defender
doesn’t reset the phase of play but in my opinion the defender
in this situation has deliberately played the ball to stop it
going across the goal as would any defender in that position.
>
--- End Quote ---
IFAB updated the guidance last summer but kept the phrasing as
deliberate play so as not to actually amend the wording of LOTG,
which I'm not sure was terribly helpful. A player might have
deliberately tried to touch the ball but that doesn't
necessarily make it a deliberate play by them. A deliberate play
requires the defender to have control of the ball with the
possibility of passing to a teammate, gaining possession or
making a clearance.
#Post#: 64533--------------------------------------------------
Re: J BROOKS: LIVERPOOL V VILLA
DIR By: Claretman
Date: May 22, 2023, 12:18 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Readingfan link ---
>
> [quote author=Scally Bob link=topic=4929.msg64512#msg64512
date=1684759924]
> I just watched the disallowed goal again.
>
> If the Villa defender had used his arm in the same way as he
used his leg in that situation it would be a penalty kick. I
know it’s not what applies to offside but he has made his
silhouette bigger to make contact with the ball. I don’t
understand how that can be considered not deliberate.
>
> My understanding is that an unintended touch off a defender
doesn’t reset the phase of play but in my opinion the defender
in this situation has deliberately played the ball to stop it
going across the goal as would any defender in that position.
>
--- End Quote ---
IFAB updated the guidance last summer but kept the phrasing as
deliberate play so as not to actually amend the wording of LOTG,
which I'm not sure was terribly helpful. A player might have
deliberately tried to touch the ball but that doesn't
necessarily make it a deliberate play by them. A deliberate play
requires the defender to have control of the ball with the
possibility of passing to a teammate, gaining possession or
making a clearance.
[/quote]
I see dermot on ref watch advised the disallowing of the goal
was correct in law.
#Post#: 64541--------------------------------------------------
Re: J BROOKS: LIVERPOOL V VILLA
DIR By: Gorgeous George
Date: May 22, 2023, 1:55 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
Readingfan is completely 100% correct in terms of application of
the law and I believe the VAR and Brooks were also completely
correct to disallow the goal.
I feel that the terminology used in law actually makes it sound
incorrect as they use “deliberate play” when the reality is it’s
more like a deliberate pass or full ball under control needed to
be classed as a deliberate play in law. Any block, save or
stretching attempt to touch the ball is basically a deflection
and not classed as a deliberate play in law whether the defender
moves towards the ball deliberately or not.
Sadly most football fans have no idea about law application and
there in lies the problem with modern refereeing.
Also, as Dermot explained today, the Palace Fulham goal was
different as the only touches after the initial free kick come
from a defender and not an attacker, and as Ward was onside when
the ball was whipped in initially it is clearly a correct goal.
#Post#: 64578--------------------------------------------------
Re: J BROOKS: LIVERPOOL V VILLA
DIR By: mauricelapin
Date: May 23, 2023, 3:55 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Why not? If time-wasting starts early in the second half of a
match, and continues after a further warning, a second yellow
card is entirely justifiable. Two YC offences merit a RC,
whatever the precise nature of such offences. The Villa
goalkeeper would have received a RC during several matches this
season - but perhaps only one or two, if he had realised that
this sanction would be routinely imposed.
#Post#: 64597--------------------------------------------------
Re: J BROOKS: LIVERPOOL V VILLA
DIR By: bruntyboy
Date: May 23, 2023, 1:00 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: mauricelapin link ---
>
>
>
> Why not? If time-wasting starts early in the second half of a
match, and continues after a further warning, a second yellow
card is entirely justifiable. Two YC offences merit a RC,
whatever the precise nature of such offences. The Villa
goalkeeper would have received a RC during several matches this
season - but perhaps only one or two, if he had realised that
this sanction would be routinely imposed.
>
--- End Quote ---
Very often time wasting starts early in the first half of a
match and nothing is done about it.
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