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#Post#: 63482--------------------------------------------------
Re: P TIERNEY: LIV V TOT
DIR By: Leggy
Date: May 1, 2023, 11:35 am
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--- Quote from: DublinRef link ---
>
> I have not commented on this site for some time and likely
will not do so again. There are many fantastic posters on here
but I have become a little disillusioned with the lack of even
the smallest amount impartiality some posters are able to muster
when commenting on the performance of a referee who officiates a
match involving the team they support.
>
> I felt compelled, however, to comment on this thread, as I
felt that today summed up everything wrong with Premier League
refereeing. Let me start by saying that I place little blame on
Paul Tierney and John Brooks, I think they are only doing what
their bosses want. In a sense, I don't even place full blame on
Mr. Klopp, yes his behavior (like many, if not most managers)
towards officials is appalling but nothing has been put in place
in terms of deterrent by the league for this type of action.
Likewise for players, it seems that screaming the face of
officials and generally behaving like children (and that is an
insult to most children) is ok in the Premier League.
>
> I think that there were two incidents of SFP today. One from
each team. I also think that in neither case would the Premier
League like referees to actually apply the laws. So I cannot
blame Mr. Tierney. After Liverpool's final goal, a fantastic
piece of skill, Mr. Klopp's first reaction was to run to the 4th
official John Brooks, stand close to him, and appear to scream
in his face. This action is totally unacceptable by any measure,
there is absolutely no justification. It should have been met
with a red card from the referee and a lengthy suspension from
the authorities. This is not passion, it is abuse. His team had
scored. He was more interested in abusing the officials than
celebrating with his players and fans. Again though, I feel I
cannot blame Mr. Brooks. He likely wants a lengthy career.
>
> In terms of Mr. Tierney refusing to shake Mr. Klopp's hand,
which I did not personally see, I agree with Whistleblower. I
personally like to always shake hands with everyone at the end
of a match however, I can understand being reluctant to shake
the hand of someone who has treated you with no respect during
the game appears to be further dissenting in the aftermath.
>
> Two final points - Firstly, the Tottenham coach should also
have been dismissed, however his actions pale compared to
Klopp's disrespect. Secondly, on the idea that Mr. Tierney may
have spoken out of turn when cautioning Mr. Klopp, there is no
evidence for this, other than an insinuation from Mr. Klopp
which one could see as deliberately vague so as to stoke up
conspiratorial ire among fans towards the referee. All
conversations are recorded so the PGMOL will know soon. To
complain about a referee's speech, publicly, then refuse to say
what was actually said, to me at least, seems rather suspect and
not in any way helpful.
>
> I am sure that Liverpool fans will say that I am attacking
their team. I can assure them that I do not support any Premier
League team, nor any soccer team at all. I am only interested in
officiating. I would also hope that long time contributors,
while not always agreeing with my comments, will know that I
also post in as fair a manner as I can.
>
> My final comment is that Premier League refereeing is in a
very poor state. Referees are not truly referees anymore but
occasion managers. Every attempt seems to be made to tolerate
poor behavior of players both in terms of foul play and the
constant abuse of officials. It seems it is the desire of the
powers that be that 22 players be kept on the pitch, almost at
all costs. I am not sure who is served by this approach but I
don't feel it is working and I don't think it will end well. I
wish all referees the very best and hope that they,
collectively, will change their approach.
>
--- End Quote ---
I agree with every word written above (except for the American
spelling of "behaviour"!!)
#Post#: 63483--------------------------------------------------
Re: P TIERNEY: LIV V TOT
DIR By: bruntyboy
Date: May 1, 2023, 12:43 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Failed Ref link ---
>
> Dermott Gallagher gave his opinion on Paul Tierney and some of
the talking points. He feels Jotta was very lucky not to get a
red card and a similar incident in a European match would result
in a red card. So first question is why the difference? Putting
the case for yellow you could argue that Jota got his foot in
first and the Spurs player invaded Jota's space. Translating,
Jota got there first and controlled that space. Personally,
putting a foot up that high is potentially dangerous and should
be heavily punished especially if contact is made with the head.
> As for the yellow for Klopp, Gallagher suggests that it was
for what he said as that was the offence he committed and
presumably the correct card, there being no justification for a
red even though it could be deemed aggressive behaviour!
> As always, another point of view or at least an insight into
the referee's thought process and as we know the game is often
about opinions.
>
--- End Quote ---
In which case why did Casemiro get a RC against Southampton as
he got to the ball first and then using your phrase the
Southampton player invaded his space?
Also on a separate point using your European comparison there's
been many "handball" penalty incidents in the Premier League
which haven't been given as penalties whereas in Europe they
would have been. In Europe going into a challenge with a "foot
up" is always considered a foul whereas in the Premier League it
often isn't.
#Post#: 63485--------------------------------------------------
Re: P TIERNEY: LIV V TOT
DIR By: Ref Fan
Date: May 1, 2023, 1:22 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Failed Ref link ---
>
> Dermott Gallagher gave his opinion on Paul Tierney and some of
the talking points. He feels Jotta was very lucky not to get a
red card and a similar incident in a European match would result
in a red card. So first question is why the difference? Putting
the case for yellow you could argue that Jota got his foot in
first and the Spurs player invaded Jota's space. Translating,
Jota got there first and controlled that space. Personally,
putting a foot up that high is potentially dangerous and should
be heavily punished especially if contact is made with the head.
> As for the yellow for Klopp, Gallagher suggests that it was
for what he said as that was the offence he committed and
presumably the correct card, there being no justification for a
red even though it could be deemed aggressive behaviour!
> As always, another point of view or at least an insight into
the referee's thought process and as we know the game is often
about opinions.
>
--- End Quote ---
What I found interesting was the reaction to the Skipp challenge
on Diaz. DG as a former referee said it wasn't a RC and that a
YC would have been correct. The 2 pundits, both ex footballers,
on the other hand thought RC. Didn't see it at the time as it
was in the first half but do I gather a foul wasn't even given?
Dermot wouldn't be drawn on Klopp's comments after the game as
to whether they inferred Tierney had an agenda against
Liverpool.
Smith and Warnock though seemed more sympathetic generally
towards Managers who showed passion during a game without being
pressed on what was not acceptable.
At least, that's how I heard it but stand to be corrected.
#Post#: 63491--------------------------------------------------
Re: P TIERNEY: LIV V TOT
DIR By: Whistleblower
Date: May 1, 2023, 2:54 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
Klopp is reported as saying that he was wrong to be so "in the
face" of John Brooks. Well, at least it is something that he
realises his abusive behaviour was unacceptable and I hope, if
he has any decency in him which he may well have, that he offers
a private apology to Brooks whom I am sure would be gracious
enough to accept.
What I think is potentially more serious is his attempt to smear
Paul Tierney with such vague and unsubstantiated allegations. I
am pleased the PGMOL has completely exonerated Tierney from any
unprofessionalism and so while he is on the phone, Klopp should
also call Tierney and offer an apology for the disgraceful slur
which he attempted to perpetrate.
I think PL referees are now caught between a rock and a hard
place in that the powers that be seem reluctant to offer serious
sanctions for serious misdemeanours and seem to expect match
officials to put up with intolerable abuse.
#Post#: 63508--------------------------------------------------
Re: P TIERNEY: LIV V TOT
DIR By: cwh
Date: May 1, 2023, 10:49 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Whistleblower link ---
>
> Klopp is reported as saying that he was wrong to be so "in the
face" of John Brooks. Well, at least it is something that he
realises his abusive behaviour was unacceptable and I hope, if
he has any decency in him which he may well have, that he offers
a private apology to Brooks whom I am sure would be gracious
enough to accept.
>
> What I think is potentially more serious is his attempt to
smear Paul Tierney with such vague and unsubstantiated
allegations. I am pleased the PGMOL has completely exonerated
Tierney from any unprofessionalism and so while he is on the
phone, Klopp should also call Tierney and offer an apology for
the disgraceful slur which he attempted to perpetrate.
>
> I think PL referees are now caught between a rock and a hard
place in that the powers that be seem reluctant to offer serious
sanctions for serious misdemeanours and seem to expect match
officials to put up with intolerable abuse.
>
--- End Quote ---
I agree with all you say except that 'so called apologies' mean
absolutely nothing these days (this applies to other situations
outside of football such as politics etc)and do they really mean
it anyway? - I also think this way about H Webb phoning
apologies to clubs on behalf referees about decisions made -
does it really make any difference? I wouldn't think so - all
this may sound a bit cynical but that is how I feel
#Post#: 63509--------------------------------------------------
Re: P TIERNEY: LIV V TOT
DIR By: Whistleblower
Date: May 2, 2023, 2:21 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: cwh link ---
>
> [quote author=Whistleblower link=topic=4850.msg63491#msg63491
date=1682970858]
> Klopp is reported as saying that he was wrong to be so "in the
face" of John Brooks. Well, at least it is something that he
realises his abusive behaviour was unacceptable and I hope, if
he has any decency in him which he may well have, that he offers
a private apology to Brooks whom I am sure would be gracious
enough to accept.
>
> What I think is potentially more serious is his attempt to
smear Paul Tierney with such vague and unsubstantiated
allegations. I am pleased the PGMOL has completely exonerated
Tierney from any unprofessionalism and so while he is on the
phone, Klopp should also call Tierney and offer an apology for
the disgraceful slur which he attempted to perpetrate.
>
> I think PL referees are now caught between a rock and a hard
place in that the powers that be seem reluctant to offer serious
sanctions for serious misdemeanours and seem to expect match
officials to put up with intolerable abuse.
>
--- End Quote ---
I agree with all you say except that 'so called apologies' mean
absolutely nothing these days (this applies to other situations
outside of football such as politics etc)and do they really mean
it anyway? - I also think this way about H Webb phoning
apologies to clubs on behalf referees about decisions made -
does it really make any difference? I wouldn't think so - all
this may sound a bit cynical but that is how I feel
[/quote]
Only the giver of an apology knows how genuine is the
contrition. However an apology, even if not particularly
sincerely meant, is an open acknowledgement of something
perpetrated which was wrong and that is not inconsequential.
#Post#: 63510--------------------------------------------------
Re: P TIERNEY: LIV V TOT
DIR By: Arbitre anglais
Date: May 2, 2023, 3:09 am
---------------------------------------------------------
The officials, as a group, really do need to get tougher. Surely
Klopp’s defence to any charge would be - if it was anything bad,
why didn’t the officials deal with it at the time?? RCs and long
stadium bans would soon make people think twice. The FA have a
lot to answer for, but it shouldn’t be there to deal with stuff
the onfield officials plainly saw and failed to deal with (just
to give ineffective punishments when they do …). It’s great
officials keeping calm and not overreacting, but Brooks just
standing there and ignoring Klopp looks very weak.
Both highlighted challenges were clear RCs. The kick to the face
was blatant SFP - normal heading height, and if you catch a
player with studs in the face at that height, it has to be SFP.
The other Skipp challenge was more forgivable to only give YC
onfield (VAR should’ve helped upgrade to RC) but it wasn’t even
given as a foul!
#Post#: 63523--------------------------------------------------
Re: P TIERNEY: LIV V TOT
DIR By: Rosstheref
Date: May 2, 2023, 6:12 am
---------------------------------------------------------
It would be interesting if they released the audio- however I
doubt they will.
I'm surprised Tierney was given this game as he had the reverse
fixture earlier in the season.
#Post#: 63537--------------------------------------------------
Re: P TIERNEY: LIV V TOT
DIR By: jacksamuel21
Date: May 2, 2023, 8:18 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Klopp: "Paul Tierney came over to me, I didn't expect for a
second a red card, and he said: 'For me it's a red card but
because of him (the 4th official) it's a yellow'."
Quote from Klopp today
I can see why Klopp could easily have taken this as Tierney
using previous history into account. How would he know what had
happened from 50 yards away while looking in the wrong
direction.
If Tierney saw it and thought it was red, why didn't he show him
a red? Surely he would if he didn't like Klopp
--- Quote from: Rosstheref link ---
>
> It would be interesting if they released the audio- however I
doubt they will.
> I'm surprised Tierney was given this game as he had the
reverse fixture earlier in the season.
>
--- End Quote ---
Tierney did the reverse last season, where he was a shambles.
Madley did the reverse earlier this season
#Post#: 63553--------------------------------------------------
Re: P TIERNEY: LIV V TOT
DIR By: Whistleblower
Date: May 2, 2023, 11:38 am
---------------------------------------------------------
A very good piece in today's Times by Henry Winter about the
subject entitled " More transparency needed, Jurgen, not
trolling and toxicity " though he rather ungenerously calls
Tierney "a 6/10 referee " Winter makes the excellent point that
Howard Webb is prepared to defend his referees and his public
statement that nothing in the recorded conversation suggested
any unprofessionalism on Tierney's part is most welcome. Winter
also analyses Tierney's officiating at recent matches involving
Liverpool and comprehensively shows that any accusation of
unfair treatment bears no scrutiny whatsoever.
My view is that Klopp has rather shown himself up in this
incident, what my erstwhile clerk would have called a silly
twit, or something like that !
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