DIR Return Create A Forum - Home
---------------------------------------------------------
RateTheRef
HTML https://ratetheref.createaforum.com
---------------------------------------------------------
*****************************************************
DIR Return to: General Discussion
*****************************************************
#Post#: 61772--------------------------------------------------
Re: C Kavanagh- Man Utd vs Fulham
DIR By: Leggy
Date: March 20, 2023, 5:02 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: rustyref link ---
>
> [quote author=Leggy link=topic=4700.msg61736#msg61736
date=1679254192]
> First point to make is that I am very pleased that CK dealt
with the Fulham manager and captain according to Law. I
sincerely hope that the proverbial book is thrown at both and
that long bans follow - along with a clear message that the same
will follow for anyone else taking the came course of action.
>
> My second point (and I suspect that this is going to be less
well received) is that, like a couple of other correspondents on
this forum, I believe that the correct decision should have been
given in real time by CK. And, whilst I have no way of proving
it, had this happened the subsequent furore would not have
happened.
>
> To illustrate, imagine that this is an FA Cup tie from a few
years ago and one of England's top referees has to use his
skill, nous and experience to correctly make the big calls. On
seeing what transpired, he whistles, awards a penalty and
quickly shows the red card to the offender. There will be
protests, but nothing of this magnitude.
>
> Fast forward to today, I believe that CK has a good clear view
of the incident but is not 100% certain (when is anyone 100%
certain??). He knows he has the VAR "safety net" so gives
nothing. He could have given the penalty / red card and he
would still have had the same safety net, but I have long
believed that VAR is emaciating our top referees and many are
too timid to make the big calls, relying on VAR to do that for
them.
>
> None of the above is anything close to an excuse for the
subsequent behaviour, but our top referees have got where they
are today without VAR and VAR is changing the way they
officiate, and not for the better.
>
--- End Quote ---
The reality doesn't back up that view though. For all he had an
excellent game, the fact that VAR corrected the penalty decision
means he will be given a 7.9 for an incorrect key match
decision. No referee is going to willingly / knowingly not make
a big call because they know they can reply on VAR, as they know
a 7.9 will be forthcoming if they do.
It took me several replays to be sure it was intentional
handling, and it was really the angle from behind the goal that
made my mind up. Chris Kavanagh got one view, from the worst
possible angle, and was looking through much of Willian's torso,
there is no way he could be 100% sure from the view he had.
[/quote]
Fair enough, for what it is worth, my first instinct was that it
was handball. My view was the live TV angle which was different
from CKs, which might make your point. I still firmly believe
that - pre-VAR - he would have awarded the penalty - the contact
looked all wrong. We can agree to disagree.
What is emerging is that the Fulham management team had already
pre-judged CK, entering the game with an "agenda" ("Our story
with CK this season has been tough for us") going back to a game
in October. If a referee went to a club with such an agenda
there would be a furore.
Silva also demonstrated a degree of stupidly by adding (about
his own red card): "I am not going to lie. I didn't say he was
a really nice guy and the decision was fair. But he didn't hear
me." Even if this is true (which I doubt) does that make it OK
to abuse a referee if they cannot hear it?
#Post#: 61773--------------------------------------------------
Re: C Kavanagh- Man Utd vs Fulham
DIR By: takethejag
Date: March 20, 2023, 5:37 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: UmpireIan49 link ---
>
> The predictable blame game has started, starting with Marco
Silva who harks back to a game played in October!
>
> Excuse me? Why should that be of any relevance or excuse for
what happened last night? Or for that matter, Chris Kavanagh
refereed the fifth round tie between Fulham v Leeds and no fault
was found there.
>
> It’s the siege mentality….not my fault guv’nor, I’ll use the
easy scapegoat, the referee for the incidents that occurred.
>
> I’ve seen the incidents now, and Mitrovic’s behaviour is
beyond the pale, making aggressive contact with Kavanagh and
then getting in his face when the red card was shown.
Dreadful….and the condemnation for that is just and appropriate.
>
> A word to the wise…..deal with the match in front of you and
don’t refer to the ill luck or rough decisions you’ve had with a
particular official months or years before.
>
> “I’ll have a word with him” and “He should have had two
penalties himself” were two more Silva gems. A ban will suffice
for the manager and his player and this will act as a deterrent
to anyone else who goes overboard….but the blame game that comes
out in moments like this are risible in the extreme.
>
> An example needs to be set….will the FA have a backbone this
time and take the necessary action? We will see
>
--- End Quote ---
No-one can disagree with your points or the red cards that were
given and Fulham will have to live long with the consequences of
these, however there is a lot of anger and hurt from Fulham (and
some other) fans on social media about both the conduct of
Fulham but also the apparent duality of things and the things
that weren't given (in Fulham's favour). From these social media
posts, we can probably discount a FA conspiracy for an all
Manchester final, or CK's birthplace being a factor but why
can't Fulham feel aggrieved at the incidents referred to in
matches where CK has been in charge, when these are coupled with
decisions in this match that didn't go their way? These previous
matches (Preston and West Ham away) were why I was so aghast at
his appointment for the Leeds FA Cup home tie as I really didn't
rate him and as you will recall, questioned whether there was
any process where a team could request not to have a certain
referee. Thankfully, the Leeds game went without incident, but
as you will recall again, I was quite shocked that the same
(Manchester born for a Manchester fixture) referee was allocated
for this fixture. I don't think the FA/PGMOL did themselves any
favour here and should have mixed it up with a different
appointment.
Whilst all the plaudits (and sympathy) are for how CK was strong
and stood up to things, what about the the things he missed? I
understand the need for another look at the penalty/DOGSO, but
where was the red card for Antony kicking Robinson off the ball
(it was Antony who then fed Sancho for the DOGSO incident) and
where was the penalty in the 3rd minute for Fulham for a clear
push on Mitrovic off the ball right in front of CK. (I only saw
the replay/images for that this morning). Where was VAR for
these things? Was VAR already daydreaming about his impending
(forced) retirement when these incidents took place? I think
Marco Silva has every right to feel aggrieved, even if his
actions were still totally unacceptable.
#Post#: 61774--------------------------------------------------
Re: C Kavanagh- Man Utd vs Fulham
DIR By: bmb
Date: March 20, 2023, 5:59 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: PhiltheRef link ---
>
> I have a mentee who was only verbally abused yesterday (adults
ganging up on a 16 year old girl refereeing her 9th ever game)
> Fortunately she seems to be made of strong stuff stronger
than her parents who wouldn't have been averse to her giving up.
>
--- End Quote ---
I hope the young lady concerned is ok. Please send some love and
support from me and thank you for looking after her. This is
where good mentors are so important.
#Post#: 61775--------------------------------------------------
Re: C Kavanagh- Man Utd vs Fulham
DIR By: adcr85
Date: March 20, 2023, 6:02 am
---------------------------------------------------------
First of all, to echo the majority of the other posts - all
three cards correct, Mitrovic actions scandalous and big ban due
and on the whole, referee handled the situation well.
But just a couple of points, firstly from the wide angle you can
see that when CK gets to the monitor and Silva first approaches
him the assitant on the side is drinking from a bottle, so when
CK gets his red card out you see him quickly drop the bottle and
'sitch back on' - just an example to all that at no point should
you switch off during the match -= even when you thnk the action
will be dead
Secondly - and to reiterate, the reaction is ridiculous, but why
was CK so quick to get the red out fot Willian? As soon as he
walks back to the pitch, when he is 80 yards from the penalty
spot and 50 yards from Willian he points for the penalty and
waves the red card in Willians direction while stood next to
Mitrovic. Now I know the non-league style of bringing the player
to one side, confiming the name etc. wouldn't happen - but I
still think getting closer to the player may have helped. We are
all headed up to that penalty area for the penalty - so just get
the card out when you are there.
#Post#: 61776--------------------------------------------------
Re: C Kavanagh- Man Utd vs Fulham
DIR By: Ref95
Date: March 20, 2023, 7:08 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Red card and hopefully a subsequent touch line ban is long
overdue for Silva, who seems to have had runnings with officials
for several weeks now. Personally I think his actions are the
worst of the three and the catalyst for what followed. Clearly
Mitrovic’s actions are also indefensible, but I’m almost certain
he doesn’t react like that if his manager didn’t do so
beforehand.
And in terms of this trickling down to grassroots, for me it’s
the manager’s actions that mirror the current situation the
most. Kids won’t copy Mitrovic, they’ll follow the lead of
their coach or parents, who will follow the lead of the likes of
Silva.
From a referees point of view, I am completely grateful to CK
for dealing with it so well. It gives us grassroots level
referees a role-model for dealing with scenarios like this.
#Post#: 61778--------------------------------------------------
Re: C Kavanagh- Man Utd vs Fulham
DIR By: jacksamuel21
Date: March 20, 2023, 7:36 am
---------------------------------------------------------
HTML https://twitter.com/privilege_mufc/status/1637764375665688577
Correct decision
#Post#: 61779--------------------------------------------------
Re: C Kavanagh- Man Utd vs Fulham
DIR By: Readingfan
Date: March 20, 2023, 9:32 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Silva's comments on Kavanagh's previous Fulham matches seemed
pretty weak and unnecessary in the circumstances, especially as
quite a few of the incidents seem to have been more ones for
VAR.
Of course referees will sometimes make mistakes and managers can
make constructive criticisms when these occur.
But I don't think it's helpful for managers to start speaking
about a referee's previous record, especially when referencing
such a small number of games. You'd basically end up in a
position where if a referee had one poor game they'd be stopped
from refereeing that team again or need to consider the
decisions they give against that team the next time they referee
them which doesn't sound a good place to be in.
#Post#: 61780--------------------------------------------------
Re: C Kavanagh- Man Utd vs Fulham
DIR By: bmb
Date: March 20, 2023, 10:00 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Readingfan link ---
>
> But I don't think it's helpful for managers to start speaking
about a referee's previous record, especially when referencing
such a small number of games. You'd basically end up in a
position where if a referee had one poor game they'd be stopped
from refereeing that team again or need to consider the
decisions they give against that team the next time they referee
them which doesn't sound a good place to be in.
>
--- End Quote ---
How many years did managers and the media keep going on about
Stuart Attwell & the ghost goal, despite it being the AR's call.
15 years on & it still gets mentioned every now and then.
Absolutely pathetic! If referees started talking about players
and coaches mistakes in every game they had done with them
previously they'd have no time left to referee games!
#Post#: 61781--------------------------------------------------
Re: C Kavanagh- Man Utd vs Fulham
DIR By: Claretman
Date: March 20, 2023, 10:28 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: bmb link ---
>
> [quote author=Readingfan link=topic=4700.msg61779#msg61779
date=1679322748]
> But I don't think it's helpful for managers to start speaking
about a referee's previous record, especially when referencing
such a small number of games. You'd basically end up in a
position where if a referee had one poor game they'd be stopped
from refereeing that team again or need to consider the
decisions they give against that team the next time they referee
them which doesn't sound a good place to be in.
>
--- End Quote ---
How many years did managers and the media keep going on about
Stuart Attwell & the ghost goal, despite it being the AR's call.
15 years on & it still gets mentioned every now and then.
Absolutely pathetic! If referees started talking about players
and coaches mistakes in every game they had done with them
previously they'd have no time left to referee games!
[/quote]
Anyone remember nigel bannister?
I dont expect managers have dossiers on when referees have
performed well and eg because of advantage being played their
team has scored a goal etc.
#Post#: 61783--------------------------------------------------
Re: C Kavanagh- Man Utd vs Fulham
DIR By: PhiltheRef
Date: March 20, 2023, 11:06 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: bmb link ---
>
> [quote author=PhiltheRef link=topic=4700.msg61761#msg61761
date=1679267602]
> I have a mentee who was only verbally abused yesterday (adults
ganging up on a 16 year old girl refereeing her 9th ever game)
> Fortunately she seems to be made of strong stuff stronger
than her parents who wouldn't have been averse to her giving up.
>
--- End Quote ---
I hope the young lady concerned is ok. Please send some love and
support from me and thank you for looking after her. This is
where good mentors are so important.
[/quote]
Thanks,
She's fine, a toughie who wants to succeed and won't let them
put her off.
I'll surely send her your good wishes when next we speak.
AT has been in touch already and she has lots of support,
particularly from our growing cohort of female officials who are
much more familiar than I with the particular difficulties young
female referees encounter
*****************************************************
Page 7 of 13
DIR Previous Page
DIR Next Page