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#Post#: 61283--------------------------------------------------
Re: Andre Marriner - LCFC v CFC
DIR By: bruntyboy
Date: March 12, 2023, 6:23 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: ajb95 link ---
>
> And yet Casemiro sent off for Man United today for a tackle on
a par with the two seen in this game. Where is the consistency?
>
--- End Quote ---
Where was the "clear and obvious" error as Taylor had given a YC
and was 5 yards away from the incident with no players
obstructing his view?
#Post#: 61287--------------------------------------------------
Re: Andre Marriner - LCFC v CFC
DIR By: ajb95
Date: March 13, 2023, 2:59 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: bruntyboy link ---
>
> [quote author=ajb95 link=topic=4663.msg61241#msg61241
date=1678638916]
> And yet Casemiro sent off for Man United today for a tackle on
a par with the two seen in this game. Where is the consistency?
>
--- End Quote ---
Where was the "clear and obvious" error as Taylor had given a YC
and was 5 yards away from the incident with no players
obstructing his view?
[/quote]
And then we had Dan burn’s tackle in the Newcastle wolves game.
Not even a free kick given (which I agree with). 3 Similar
tackles 3 different outcomes
#Post#: 61300--------------------------------------------------
Re: Andre Marriner - LCFC v CFC
DIR By: Marvin Grapevine
Date: March 13, 2023, 6:22 am
---------------------------------------------------------
This is the key issue (and why VAR cannot work for subjective
decisions).
We were told VAR would reduce controversy, but it actually makes
it worse, because the sense of injustice is amplified.
We know that psychologically - and understandably - the VAR
officials don't want to show up their friends and colleagues who
are in charge of the game, as it's a very difficult job. As VAR
decisions are subjective this means this happens all the time.
Marriner didn't even book Pereira the day before yet then as VAR
recommends a red for Casemiro for a tackle that was not even as
bad. All we ask for is consistency.
#Post#: 61305--------------------------------------------------
Re: Andre Marriner - LCFC v CFC
DIR By: jacksamuel21
Date: March 13, 2023, 7:56 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Casimiro right to be sent off for me, he jumps in dangerously.
But the one in the Leicester game is a clearer red card. But
Graham Scott was on VAR who is a poor official so it was missed.
#Post#: 61306--------------------------------------------------
Re: Andre Marriner - LCFC v CFC
DIR By: bmb
Date: March 13, 2023, 7:58 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Consistency is unattainable all the time that the vast majority
of decisions remain subjective, imo. A lenient referee who
referees more within the spirit of the LOTG is always going to
be lenient, a strict 100% by the book referee is always going to
be strict and as such their decisions will be different on the
exact same situation as their subjectivity will be different. No
2 incidents are ever exactly the same, despite a high degree of
similarity, the angle the ball comes in, the speed of the
players or ball, the angle a tackle comes in from, other players
proximity, the point of contact on the ball or other player, the
force of the contact on the ball or player, the proximity of the
referee, the angle of view the referee has and how much if at
all their view is obscured are just some of the factors that
will make any given scenario, that at first glance appears the
same as another one, a slightly unique difference from each
other and can be the difference between one being given and the
other not given. I believe the best we can realistically hope
for in terms of consistency is that every referee is consistent
in their decision making across a game and deal with similar
incidents in a similar manner.
As to VAR I seem to recall we had many conversations when it was
first spoken of about how a subjective decision made by the on
field referee can/will be reviewed by a different referee who
may or may not have a different tolerance level and their
decision to intervene or not is going to be based on their
subjectivity. We are now seeing how it does (or does not) work!
If I say I'm happy that was just a coming together and that is
my subjective opinion of an incident, but you say well imo it
was reckless and that is your subjective opinion then how can
either of us say well I am right and you are wrong just because
we have a difference in tolerance levels, which directly impacts
our subjectivity?
#Post#: 61307--------------------------------------------------
Re: Andre Marriner - LCFC v CFC
DIR By: jacksamuel21
Date: March 13, 2023, 8:29 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: bmb link ---
>
> Consistency is unattainable all the time that the vast
majority of decisions remain subjective, imo. A lenient referee
who referees more within the spirit of the LOTG is always going
to be lenient, a strict 100% by the book referee is always going
to be strict and as such their decisions will be different on
the exact same situation as their subjectivity will be
different. No 2 incidents are ever exactly the same, despite a
high degree of similarity, the angle the ball comes in, the
speed of the players or ball, the angle a tackle comes in from,
other players proximity, the point of contact on the ball or
other player, the force of the contact on the ball or player,
the proximity of the referee, the angle of view the referee has
and how much if at all their view is obscured are just some of
the factors that will make any given scenario, that at first
glance appears the same as another one, a slightly unique
difference from each other and can be the difference between one
being given and the other not given. I believe the best we can
realistically hope for in terms of consistency is that every
referee is consistent in their decision making across a game and
deal with similar incidents in a similar manner.
>
> As to VAR I seem to recall we had many conversations when it
was first spoken of about how a subjective decision made by the
on field referee can/will be reviewed by a different referee who
may or may not have a different tolerance level and their
decision to intervene or not is going to be based on their
subjectivity. We are now seeing how it does (or does not) work!
If I say I'm happy that was just a coming together and that is
my subjective opinion of an incident, but you say well imo it
was reckless and that is your subjective opinion then how can
either of us say well I am right and you are wrong just because
we have a difference in tolerance levels, which directly impacts
our subjectivity?
>
--- End Quote ---
I think a lot of the issue people have is the fact that two very
similar looking tackles (or one worse than another) is judged
less harshly than a decision the day before by the same
official.
#Post#: 61309--------------------------------------------------
Re: Andre Marriner - LCFC v CFC
DIR By: Ref Fan
Date: March 13, 2023, 9:00 am
---------------------------------------------------------
On RefWatch, there was mixed opinion as to whether it should
have been a RC. Smith said RC, Warnock a YC. Dermot said that
VAR didn't intervene because they didn't consider it a RC
without making clear his own opinion as far as I could tell.
What they did all agree on was that there should have been a
greater sanction by Andre Marriner than just a foul.
With regard to the follow through to Havertz's chest, I think
the view was that it should have been a YC. Was that the
challenge Marriner didn't even give a foul for?
To be honest, I'm not sure that's the sort of consistency we
want to see. 1 foul for 2 challenges that should have brought
at least YCs.
There was unanimity that the upgrade to a RC for Casemiro was
correct. How AT only deemed it a YC from a few yards away and a
clear view wasn't discussed. And was it just me that found it
slightly ironic after his Saturday game, Andre Marriner was the
VAR who advised a FIFA elite referee he had made an obvious and
clear error and to review it at the monitor.
#Post#: 61313--------------------------------------------------
Re: Andre Marriner - LCFC v CFC
DIR By: Claretman
Date: March 13, 2023, 10:24 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Ref Fan link ---
>
> On RefWatch, there was mixed opinion as to whether it should
have been a RC. Smith said RC, Warnock a YC. Dermot said that
VAR didn't intervene because they didn't consider it a RC
without making clear his own opinion as far as I could tell.
> What they did all agree on was that there should have been a
greater sanction by Andre Marriner than just a foul.
>
> With regard to the follow through to Havertz's chest, I think
the view was that it should have been a YC. Was that the
challenge Marriner didn't even give a foul for?
>
> To be honest, I'm not sure that's the sort of consistency we
want to see. 1 foul for 2 challenges that should have brought
at least YCs.
>
> There was unanimity that the upgrade to a RC for Casemiro was
correct. How AT only deemed it a YC from a few yards away and a
clear view wasn't discussed. And was it just me that found it
slightly ironic after his Saturday game, Andre Marriner was the
VAR who advised a FIFA elite referee he had made an obvious and
clear error and to review it at the monitor.
>
--- End Quote ---
Refereeing decisions are about positioning and angles, sometimes
it isnt always apparent to an on field referee over a multitude
of camera angles hence we have var.
I have always maintained the difficultest decisions for referees
are the ones closest to the referee.
#Post#: 61345--------------------------------------------------
Re: Andre Marriner - LCFC v CFC
DIR By: bmb
Date: March 13, 2023, 12:02 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: jacksamuel21 link ---
>
> [quote author=bmb link=topic=4663.msg61306#msg61306
date=1678712298]
> Consistency is unattainable all the time that the vast
majority of decisions remain subjective, imo. A lenient referee
who referees more within the spirit of the LOTG is always going
to be lenient, a strict 100% by the book referee is always going
to be strict and as such their decisions will be different on
the exact same situation as their subjectivity will be
different. No 2 incidents are ever exactly the same, despite a
high degree of similarity, the angle the ball comes in, the
speed of the players or ball, the angle a tackle comes in from,
other players proximity, the point of contact on the ball or
other player, the force of the contact on the ball or player,
the proximity of the referee, the angle of view the referee has
and how much if at all their view is obscured are just some of
the factors that will make any given scenario, that at first
glance appears the same as another one, a slightly unique
difference from each other and can be the difference between one
being given and the other not given. I believe the best we can
realistically hope for in terms of consistency is that every
referee is consistent in their decision making across a game and
deal with similar incidents in a similar manner.
>
> As to VAR I seem to recall we had many conversations when it
was first spoken of about how a subjective decision made by the
on field referee can/will be reviewed by a different referee who
may or may not have a different tolerance level and their
decision to intervene or not is going to be based on their
subjectivity. We are now seeing how it does (or does not) work!
If I say I'm happy that was just a coming together and that is
my subjective opinion of an incident, but you say well imo it
was reckless and that is your subjective opinion then how can
either of us say well I am right and you are wrong just because
we have a difference in tolerance levels, which directly impacts
our subjectivity?
>
--- End Quote ---
I think a lot of the issue people have is the fact that two very
similar looking tackles (or one worse than another) is judged
less harshly than a decision the day before by the same
official.
[/quote]
Agree. The thing there though is we, as referees or former
referees, all look at any given incident through the eyes of our
own subjectivity and tolerance levels and agree/disagree with a
decision accordingly. Obviously there are some decisions that
are so blatant that whatever your tolerance level we will agree
on a red or yellow but there are plenty of decisions we won't
agree on due to our own perceptions, which always give cause for
discussion!
#Post#: 61353--------------------------------------------------
Re: Andre Marriner - LCFC v CFC
DIR By: rustyref
Date: March 13, 2023, 12:57 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
I said this all the way through the years leading to the
introduction of VAR, it was always going to be tricky as
football isn't like any other sport using video reviews. They
all have far more factual decisions: tennis, was the ball inside
or outside of the line; cricket, was the ball hitting the
stumps, was there a nick off the bat, etc; rugby, was the ball
grounded, was there a forward pass, there are some slightly more
subjective ones in rugby like dangerous play, but most are
factual. The only comparison football has to those types of
decisions is offside, that is factual, and whether people like
it or not people are going to be given offside by a nasal
toenail because that is black and white. Plus there is ball
over line but we already had accurate technology for that.
Almost everything else in football is subjective, of course some
things are so obvious that 10 referees will look and all come to
the same conclusion, but they are few and far between. Pre-VAR
we had similar challenges where one saw a red card and one saw a
yellow card, post-VAR we have exactly the same, and that is what
is supposed that happen as VAR was never brought in to fix
subjective decisions. Unfortunately under Mike Riley's regime
they didn't follow that rule and flipped one week to the next
varying where the bar was, perhaps leaving the current
perception today that VAR should correct everything, but under
Howard Webb that won't happen and we are now by and large back
to clear and obvious errors.
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