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#Post#: 3943--------------------------------------------------
Re: M OLIVER - Tottenham v Chelsea EFL Cup
DIR By: Failed Ref
Date: January 9, 2019, 8:28 am
---------------------------------------------------------
The commentator on Sky said that Michael Oliver said that the
referee should put his flag up for offside and I guess that is
what AR did. He was convinced Vardy was offside. My problem with
this is that the use of VAR to determine offside should not then
be used as the defence could claim (and did) that they were
influenced by the flag. If the view we had on Sky was what TMO
had, then I guess looking at feet it was an onside call and on
my large tv screen I concurred. But the flag went up!
Offsides can only be accurately determined if the camera angle
is "good" i.e. ideally in line and b, most importantly, play is
allowed to continue as normal without intervention from the
officials. I doubt that looking at a monitor at any picture
provided by VAR would help if the AR puts his flag up! Did AR
mean to or was it an automatic response to years of trying to
get it right.
#Post#: 3944--------------------------------------------------
Re: M OLIVER - Tottenham v Chelsea EFL Cup
DIR By: nemesis
Date: January 9, 2019, 8:32 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: rustyref link ---
>
> I think that was pretty quick, 90 seconds considering they
were looking at both offside and a penalty. That was a great
example of VAR for me.
>
--- End Quote ---
Over-ruling a possibly/probably perfectly correct offside call
is hardly a great example of use of VAR.
It also beggars belief that this offside should be over-ruled
when that ludicrous penalty at Fulham wasn't. Presumably because
it only an Assistant making the call and not a much vaunted
"elite" referee.
The system is failing not because of what it is, not because of
the technology, but because of the people using it !
#Post#: 3945--------------------------------------------------
Re: M OLIVER - Tottenham v Chelsea EFL Cup
DIR By: nemesis
Date: January 9, 2019, 8:33 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Failed Ref link ---
>
> The commentator on Sky said that Michael Oliver said that the
referee should put his flag up for offside and I guess that is
what AR did. He was convinced Vardy was offside. My problem with
this is that the use of VAR to determine offside should not then
be used as the defence could claim (and did) that they were
influenced by the flag. If the view we had on Sky was what TMO
had, then I guess looking at feet it was an onside call and on
my large tv screen I concurred. But the flag went up!
> Offsides can only be accurately determined if the camera angle
is "good" i.e. ideally in line and b, most importantly, play is
allowed to continue as normal without intervention from the
officials. I doubt that looking at a monitor at any picture
provided by VAR would help if the AR puts his flag up! Did AR
mean to or was it an automatic response to years of trying to
get it right.
>
--- End Quote ---
Have I missed something in the transfer window ?
#Post#: 3946--------------------------------------------------
Re: M OLIVER - Tottenham v Chelsea EFL Cup
DIR By: Microscopist
Date: January 9, 2019, 10:06 am
---------------------------------------------------------
"The system is failing not because of what it is, not because of
the technology, but because of the people using it !"
I once endeared myself to my bosses by cutting out a headline
from a magazine and posting it above my desk, it read -
"The technology is all there, but is the management?"
In this case my immediate thought was that the upper part of
Kane's body was offside. But being conscious that all
measurements have a degree of error I wondered whether this
could be within that margin and hence the benefit went to the
attacker. Even if that were the case I would have preferred the
cricketing approach of "referee's (or assistant's) call".
However, the more I look at the views I can't help thinking that
this appeared to be sufficiently offside that VAR should have
been able to identify it, even though the camera was not ideally
positioned. It seems odd to me that VAR should not be able to
produce two lines; one for the most advanced legitimate part of
an attacker, and one for the rearmost point of the last defender
- at whatever height they happen to be, and then correct for any
parallax errors.
#Post#: 3951--------------------------------------------------
Re: M OLIVER - Tottenham v Chelsea EFL Cup
DIR By: Readingfan
Date: January 9, 2019, 12:52 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Plym-Nick link ---
>
> [quote author=bmb link=topic=459.msg3930#msg3930
date=1546992735]
> [quote author=QuoCob link=topic=459.msg3926#msg3926
date=1546989424]
> I would have liked to have seen the view along the line for
the offside, Harry Kane's upper body appeared to be leant over
the virtual line drawn between the feet of both defender and
attacker?
> If the VAR crew didn't have that and didn't have the same view
as the AR, have they guessed?
>
--- End Quote ---
From twitter:
HTML https://twitter.com/kash1905ifb/status/1082765605067997185
Looks offside to me. AR seems to be about 2/3 feet ahead of the
last defender. I wasn't watching so he may well have been in
line originally if the defenders then moved upfield a bit,
leaving him slightly ahead of them.
[/quote]
Clear offside so what picture were var using? So the only thing
var had to get right they get wrong AND did not follow protocol
as Michael did not look at the monitor. If we are going to have
consistency then var use must be consistent also . What gets me
is people think this was a good example of var where infact it
was a shambles .
[/quote]
As far as I can tell, you can't see when the ball is played in
that photo so it's not really of any use.
To answer the questions about the process, I think the assistant
put the flag up quite late in the process. I would certainly say
that Oliver was correct to allow play to continue considering
the promising attack and the excuse of the defenders of 'we
stopped because we saw the flag' holds no credibility in a world
with VAR (or indeed without VAR, considering examples such as
the Brighton V Everton game where the referee overruled the
assistant.)
I think the assistant was right to flag eventually if he thought
it was offside because I think it's important that the officials
on the field still take responsibility for making decisions, as
far as is possible.
#Post#: 3952--------------------------------------------------
Re: M OLIVER - Tottenham v Chelsea EFL Cup
DIR By: bruntyboy
Date: January 9, 2019, 1:57 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Readingfan link ---
>
> [quote author=Plym-Nick link=topic=459.msg3942#msg3942
date=1547041375]
> [quote author=bmb link=topic=459.msg3930#msg3930
date=1546992735]
> [quote author=QuoCob link=topic=459.msg3926#msg3926
date=1546989424]
> I would have liked to have seen the view along the line for
the offside, Harry Kane's upper body appeared to be leant over
the virtual line drawn between the feet of both defender and
attacker?
> If the VAR crew didn't have that and didn't have the same view
as the AR, have they guessed?
>
--- End Quote ---
From twitter:
HTML https://twitter.com/kash1905ifb/status/1082765605067997185
Looks offside to me. AR seems to be about 2/3 feet ahead of the
last defender. I wasn't watching so he may well have been in
line originally if the defenders then moved upfield a bit,
leaving him slightly ahead of them.
[/quote]
Clear offside so what picture were var using? So the only thing
var had to get right they get wrong AND did not follow protocol
as Michael did not look at the monitor. If we are going to have
consistency then var use must be consistent also . What gets me
is people think this was a good example of var where infact it
was a shambles .
[/quote]
As far as I can tell, you can't see when the ball is played in
that photo so it's not really of any use.
To answer the questions about the process, I think the assistant
put the flag up quite late in the process. I would certainly say
that Oliver was correct to allow play to continue considering
the promising attack and the excuse of the defenders of 'we
stopped because we saw the flag' holds no credibility in a world
with VAR (or indeed without VAR, considering examples such as
the Brighton V Everton game where the referee overruled the
assistant.)
I think the assistant was right to flag eventually if he thought
it was offside because I think it's important that the officials
on the field still take responsibility for making decisions, as
far as is possible.
[/quote]
In the Brighton v Everton game the flag went up simultaneously
with the Brighton player playing the ball. The flag did not
influence the defenders and goalkeeper as the player was by
himself in the 6 yard box.
#Post#: 3953--------------------------------------------------
Re: M OLIVER - Tottenham v Chelsea EFL Cup
DIR By: TheThingFromLewes
Date: January 9, 2019, 2:20 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
Hackett pouring his thoughts out once again....
HTML https://talksport.com/football/470879/var-controversy-tottenham-chelsea-premier-league-referee/
#Post#: 3960--------------------------------------------------
Re: M OLIVER - Tottenham v Chelsea EFL Cup
DIR By: rustyref
Date: January 9, 2019, 3:45 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
What are we going to trust, a scientifically calibrated system
or someone with a camera in the crowd. I've seen a different
picture to the Twitter one that appears to show Kane offside,
but on it the ball has clearly already left the passer's foot,
and in that split second period with defender moving out and
attacker moving forwards the picture can change dramatically.
#Post#: 3964--------------------------------------------------
Re: M OLIVER - Tottenham v Chelsea EFL Cup
DIR By: Readingfan
Date: January 9, 2019, 4:06 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: bruntyboy link ---
>
> [quote author=Readingfan link=topic=459.msg3951#msg3951
date=1547059920]
> [quote author=Plym-Nick link=topic=459.msg3942#msg3942
date=1547041375]
> [quote author=bmb link=topic=459.msg3930#msg3930
date=1546992735]
> [quote author=QuoCob link=topic=459.msg3926#msg3926
date=1546989424]
> I would have liked to have seen the view along the line for
the offside, Harry Kane's upper body appeared to be leant over
the virtual line drawn between the feet of both defender and
attacker?
> If the VAR crew didn't have that and didn't have the same view
as the AR, have they guessed?
>
--- End Quote ---
From twitter:
HTML https://twitter.com/kash1905ifb/status/1082765605067997185
Looks offside to me. AR seems to be about 2/3 feet ahead of the
last defender. I wasn't watching so he may well have been in
line originally if the defenders then moved upfield a bit,
leaving him slightly ahead of them.
[/quote]
Clear offside so what picture were var using? So the only thing
var had to get right they get wrong AND did not follow protocol
as Michael did not look at the monitor. If we are going to have
consistency then var use must be consistent also . What gets me
is people think this was a good example of var where infact it
was a shambles .
[/quote]
As far as I can tell, you can't see when the ball is played in
that photo so it's not really of any use.
To answer the questions about the process, I think the assistant
put the flag up quite late in the process. I would certainly say
that Oliver was correct to allow play to continue considering
the promising attack and the excuse of the defenders of 'we
stopped because we saw the flag' holds no credibility in a world
with VAR (or indeed without VAR, considering examples such as
the Brighton V Everton game where the referee overruled the
assistant.)
I think the assistant was right to flag eventually if he thought
it was offside because I think it's important that the officials
on the field still take responsibility for making decisions, as
far as is possible.
[/quote]
In the Brighton v Everton game the flag went up simultaneously
with the Brighton player playing the ball. The flag did not
influence the defenders and goalkeeper as the player was by
himself in the 6 yard box.
[/quote]
Well, I would suggest that Kane was sufficiently in front of the
Chelsea defenders that they were unlikely to get back anyway and
it didn't seem that the goalkeeper saw the flag anyway so not
sure there was really any genuine influence.
The general point of course is that sometimes the assistant will
raise a flag and the referee will choose to overrule it for
whatever reason, with Brighton V Everton being the most recent
example.
With VAR, players will need to be increasingly alert to this
possibility and it has no credibility as a reason for players
switching off.
#Post#: 3965--------------------------------------------------
Re: M OLIVER - Tottenham v Chelsea EFL Cup
DIR By: Readingfan
Date: January 9, 2019, 4:09 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Plym-Nick link ---
>
> [quote author=bmb link=topic=459.msg3930#msg3930
date=1546992735]
> [quote author=QuoCob link=topic=459.msg3926#msg3926
date=1546989424]
> I would have liked to have seen the view along the line for
the offside, Harry Kane's upper body appeared to be leant over
the virtual line drawn between the feet of both defender and
attacker?
> If the VAR crew didn't have that and didn't have the same view
as the AR, have they guessed?
>
--- End Quote ---
From twitter:
HTML https://twitter.com/kash1905ifb/status/1082765605067997185
Looks offside to me. AR seems to be about 2/3 feet ahead of the
last defender. I wasn't watching so he may well have been in
line originally if the defenders then moved upfield a bit,
leaving him slightly ahead of them.
[/quote]
Clear offside so what picture were var using? So the only thing
var had to get right they get wrong AND did not follow protocol
as Michael did not look at the monitor. If we are going to have
consistency then var use must be consistent also . What gets me
is people think this was a good example of var where infact it
was a shambles .
[/quote]
Even under the World Cup protocol, there would have been no need
for Oliver to look at the monitor for such an offside decision
and it was an obvious penalty which it seemed clear Oliver was
going to give should he be informed that Kane was onside.
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