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#Post#: 60254--------------------------------------------------
Re: Stuart Attwell - Man United vs Leicester
DIR By: Ref95
Date: February 19, 2023, 3:36 pm
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--- Quote from: Claretman link ---
>
> [quote author=Ref95 link=topic=4576.msg60232#msg60232
date=1676824065]
> Extremely strange caution for Mendy at the start of the second
half to add to the poor first half, but improved from then on.
>
> Whilst the second goal looked, and was given offside on field.
I have sympathy with both the onfield team and the VAR team
here. They can only do as has been asked and draw lines based on
their own judgement.
>
> But that goal simply must be ruled out, there is absolutely no
evidence to overturn the original decision made by the AR. It is
impossible from a freeze frame at that angle to determine the
exact point the ball was kicked, the exact most forward point of
Rashford and the exact most rear point of the Leicester
defenders. In cases like that, the decision must remain with the
original decision, otherwise there is simply no point in having
assistant referees, we may as well just use VAR for all
offsides.
>
> Would love to hear some views on this, in my opinion there
must be clear evidence of an error by the AR to overturn it,
that was not the case today.
>
--- End Quote ---
With regard to offside it is a matter of fact, something all
clubs signed up to, the only time the decision remains with the
on field officials is if there is no camera angle available to
judge ie Liverpool v Wolves f a cup tie earlier this year. ( of
course after last week have to add the proviso that as it is
humans drawing the lines, they have to use the correct last
defender to draw the line from ).
Var is used to check goals, penalty kicks and sfp, so cannot be
used for all offsides, god help us timewise if it was.
[/quote]
I think you’ve slightly missed my point, clearly offside is a
matter of fact, you are onside or you’re off, irrespective of
how far that may be.
My point is that it is impossible for the VAR to rule either way
on decisions that are so close, such as the Rashford goal today.
It is a human decision to rule it onside or offside on the
field, and a human decision where to place the lines on the VAR
technology. We currently don’t have the technology to be
accurate (perhaps the semi-automatic system will improve this)
enough to change an onfield decision as close as this, there
should be a bigger degree of tolerance before overturning a
decision.
“Clear and obvious” doesn’t come into it when offside is
involved, but I firmly believe that we shouldn’t be taking
decisions as close as this away from the AR.
And of course I completely agree that we absolutely do not want
VAR ruling on every offside, but that seems to be the direction
we are heading.
#Post#: 60264--------------------------------------------------
Re: Stuart Attwell - Man United vs Leicester
DIR By: ajb95
Date: February 20, 2023, 3:06 am
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--- Quote from: Referee99 link ---
>
> Thought attwell was very inconsistent today in his decision
making. And how this wasn’t given as a red by him or VAR… I will
never know
>
--- End Quote ---
Photos can be misleading. If anyone could share the full clip,
it would show that there was minimal contact, which was neither
excessive force nor out of control. You could still make an
argument for endangering the safety, but for me clearly a yellow
card, flirting towards orange.
Not sure Attwell had a clear view on the highlights shown
#Post#: 60267--------------------------------------------------
Re: Stuart Attwell - Man United vs Leicester
DIR By: Failed Ref
Date: February 20, 2023, 3:30 am
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I would argue that the AR was not in the best position being to
close to the two players. It was another player playing him
onside and I would find it difficult to see where both defenders
were. Also, we have to note the foreshortening effect of the
cameras which I would imagine VAR is capable of handling. VAR is
the deciding factor and that brings clarity and certainty. Close
call and no criticism of the AR I must add.
#Post#: 60272--------------------------------------------------
Re: Stuart Attwell - Man United vs Leicester
DIR By: Jake the Peg
Date: February 20, 2023, 6:35 am
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--- Quote from: ajb95 link ---
>
> [quote author=Referee99 link=topic=4576.msg60253#msg60253
date=1676840729]
> Thought attwell was very inconsistent today in his decision
making. And how this wasn’t given as a red by him or VAR… I will
never know
>
--- End Quote ---
Photos can be misleading. If anyone could share the full clip,
it would show that there was minimal contact, which was neither
excessive force nor out of control. You could still make an
argument for endangering the safety, but for me clearly a yellow
card, flirting towards orange.
Not sure Attwell had a clear view on the highlights shown
[/quote]
If Sabitzer wasn't out of control are you saying that sticking
his studs into an opponents knee, no matter the force, was his
actual purpose? Interestingly, Dermot Gallagher thought it was
a red and couldn't understand why Atwell didn't even give a
yellow.
#Post#: 60274--------------------------------------------------
Re: Stuart Attwell - Man United vs Leicester
DIR By: Adam
Date: February 20, 2023, 7:07 am
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No way the Sabitzer tackle is a red. No force involved
whatsoever and tried his best to pull out. He removed the
potential danger by not using force and therefore the player
wasn't endangered. Yellow, can't understand why Attwell didn't
give that.
#Post#: 60277--------------------------------------------------
Re: Stuart Attwell - Man United vs Leicester
DIR By: Marvin Grapevine
Date: February 20, 2023, 7:42 am
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This is where it's all such a grey area (and why VAR for
subjective decisions is ultimately doomed to fail, simply
because it's adding another layer of subjectivity to an already
subjective decision).
You can make the argument that Sabitzer is pulling out of the
tackle and doesn't go in with force. You could say exactly the
same about Felix's red card at Fulham as he's clearly trying to
do the same. Yet one results in a red card and the other nothing
at all. VAR doesn't get involved as it's subjective decisions,
and the sense of injustice is felt by Leicester fans who think
it's a red and CFC fans who don't see the difference between
that and Felix's sending off.
Equally, the handballs by West Ham players in consecutive weeks
are justified - and not admitted as errors - due to a notional
rule that isn't intended for this sort of thing, but instead for
the situation such as at the World Cup, when a penalty was
*wrongly* awarded when a player was actually performing the
action the notional rule is there for!
It's a total mess, a predictable total mess at that, and VAR for
subjective decisions just needs to be removed. As a match going
fan not only has it increased my sense of injustice, but it's
also taken away all the joy from celebrating a goal.
#Post#: 60281--------------------------------------------------
Re: Stuart Attwell - Man United vs Leicester
DIR By: Readingfan
Date: February 20, 2023, 9:42 am
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--- Quote from: Marvin Grapevine link ---
>
> This is where it's all such a grey area (and why VAR for
subjective decisions is ultimately doomed to fail, simply
because it's adding another layer of subjectivity to an already
subjective decision).
>
> You can make the argument that Sabitzer is pulling out of the
tackle and doesn't go in with force. You could say exactly the
same about Felix's red card at Fulham as he's clearly trying to
do the same. Yet one results in a red card and the other nothing
at all. VAR doesn't get involved as it's subjective decisions,
and the sense of injustice is felt by Leicester fans who think
it's a red and CFC fans who don't see the difference between
that and Felix's sending off.
>
> Equally, the handballs by West Ham players in consecutive
weeks are justified - and not admitted as errors - due to a
notional rule that isn't intended for this sort of thing, but
instead for the situation such as at the World Cup, when a
penalty was *wrongly* awarded when a player was actually
performing the action the notional rule is there for!
>
> It's a total mess, a predictable total mess at that, and VAR
for subjective decisions just needs to be removed. As a match
going fan not only has it increased my sense of injustice, but
it's also taken away all the joy from celebrating a goal.
>
--- End Quote ---
I don't think VAR intervened for any of the incidents you
mentioned, so I'm not sure taking it away would especially
change things.
It's obviously the case that some decisions in football are
going to be subjective whatever system you use but I think
certain systems should give a better chance of making better
decisions than others. When used correctly, I think officials
should generally be able to make better decisions with video
replays than without.
I think it's been suggested the PGMO regard the West Ham V
Chelsea non-penalty decision to be an error.
Moving onto the Rashford goal, Dale Johnson observes that the
attacking/defensive lines did not touch and therefore it did not
fall into the margin of error introduced in summer 2021 - i.e.
goals have been given after much closer onside/offside calls in
the PL.
#Post#: 60358--------------------------------------------------
Re: Stuart Attwell - Man United vs Leicester
DIR By: Ref95
Date: February 21, 2023, 10:59 am
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The margin of error introduced this season is certainly an
improvement on last year, but for me it should be greater, we
are still getting too many decisions that are being overturned,
essentially based on ‘best-guess’. We are in danger of losing
the value of ARs - to reiterate, there is no blame lying with
the AR or VAR in terms of the Rashford goal.
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