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#Post#: 59843--------------------------------------------------
Re: Webb Calls emergency meeting
DIR By: Readingfan
Date: February 13, 2023, 10:15 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Having caught up a bit with Ref Watch, Dermot Gallagher's
explanation seems to directly contradict Dale Johnson's -
Gallagher says Mason judged Pinnock to be offside but didn't
think he'd committed an offence as he hadn't interfered with an
opponent, whereas Johnson says the complete opposite and states
Mason judged Pinnock had interfered with an opponent but wasn't
able to find the angles to calibrate the required lines so
couldn't give offside for that part of the decision.
The ESPN article states that information from the PL and PGMO is
used, and presumably Gallagher is able to check these things
beforehand too. So who is right? In this new age of supposed
transparency and increased communication, this seems a bit of a
communications disaster and I think PGMO need to urgently
clarify this.
#Post#: 59851--------------------------------------------------
Re: Webb Calls emergency meeting
DIR By: TheThingFromLewes
Date: February 13, 2023, 11:25 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Whistleblower link ---
>
> If I were Howard Webb I'm not sure I would persevere much with
Mason. He was an average referee who could count himself very
fortunate to be in the SG1 where he was just about the weakest
in the cohort. Always looked close to making a hash of a match
though some very strange decision making so I'm not surprised at
this recent VAR debacle. He still deserves proper care and
support however.
>
> Brooks is a different matter. First of all, I think it's
absolutely right that he has been stood down from his VAR
duties. Depending on how he is, it might be worth giving him an
on field refereeing appointment very soon to try and build up
his confidence. Brooks has had a pretty meteoric rise through
the ranks and depending on your temperament ( I have never met
him so don't know ) you can start to feel a little bit special.
A most unfortunate mistake like this, if handled properly, can
be a very good learning experience in that you realise you have
lots still to learn and a high degree of diligence is always
required irrespective of any natural talent. I hope those who
manage and coach him will know the best way to help him through
this difficulty. Those who, after a mistake of magnitude, beat
themselves up excessively need to be assured of their merit and
how the experience can be put to good use in future. Those who
try to make light of their mistakes need to be reminded of their
responsibilities. I believe it's the same in most professions
and walks of life. I've had pupils who reacted to their mistakes
in both ways and so I hope my different responses were
appropriate in each case.
>
--- End Quote ---
The well versed Whistleblower has hit the nail on the head with
complete precision.
#Post#: 59853--------------------------------------------------
Re: Webb Calls emergency meeting
DIR By: rustyref
Date: February 13, 2023, 11:28 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: watfordref link ---
>
> [quote author=lincs22 link=topic=4547.msg59800#msg59800
date=1676278216]
> They may well be match altering decisions, but are no worse
than some of the goal scoring opportunities the players miss
during EVERY game.
>
> Yes, action need to be taken to eliminate these mistakes, but
the impact needs to be viewed in context of the season and how
many mistakes the players make.
>
> If we are dismissing the officials for just these, then any
player who misses an "open goal" or a "one on one" should also
be dismissed.
>
--- End Quote ---
But this is what happens. Players who make mistakes are dropped
by their managers to the bench and don't play. If a player
persistently underperforms then they are sold to lesser clubs.
The consequences for players performing poorly is much greater
than officials. How many years has Lee Mason been persistently
underperforming? And yet here he is, still doing the same thing,
over and over again.
Howard Webb clearly is going big on the "respect" the officials
campaign, as we have seen with the Lemina red card and the Dias
yellow yesterday. Players should not be going out of their way
to harass officials - but I do think player behaviour is worse
when there is a lack of trust/confidence in officials to make
the right decision. I don't think it is any coincidence that
player behaviour towards match officials has deteriorated this
season with probably the least experienced and weakest group of
SG1 officials I can remember.
[/quote]
It happens when players make mistake after mistake after
mistake. it is very rare for a striker to be dropped for
missing a couple of chances, or a defender for giving away a
couple of goals.
A very high percentage of refereeing decisions are correct,
whether made on pitch or by VAR, certainly far higher than the
percentage of good decisions made by even the very best players.
It makes sense to take a referee who has made a serious error
out of the limelight for a few days or a week, but they need to
be getting things wrong every game to be rested for any length
of time or even reclassified to a lower level.
#Post#: 59854--------------------------------------------------
Re: Webb Calls emergency meeting
DIR By: Leggy
Date: February 13, 2023, 11:31 am
---------------------------------------------------------
I wonder if a dispassionate cost:benefit analysis of VAR in the
EPL was undertaken whether it would be seen to be value for
money.
A lot of money has been spent and the error count is marginally
down, but expectations (however unrealistic) were much higher
than that. We still have the situation whereby there are
discussions, arguments and disagreements post-games and
decisions.
We really have not progressed (especially on offside and
handball) over the last ten or twenty years.
I suspect that the verdict would be that value for money has not
been achieved.
#Post#: 59856--------------------------------------------------
Re: Webb Calls emergency meeting
DIR By: ClaretandBlue06
Date: February 13, 2023, 11:35 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Have appointments been delayed in the EFL due to this? I know
SG2 haven’t been called but they are usually out for EFL clubs
with SG1 blank until tonight’s game has finished
#Post#: 59866--------------------------------------------------
Re: Webb Calls emergency meeting
DIR By: watfordref
Date: February 13, 2023, 1:48 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: rustyref link ---
>
> [quote author=watfordref link=topic=4547.msg59818#msg59818
date=1676287375]
> [quote author=lincs22 link=topic=4547.msg59800#msg59800
date=1676278216]
> They may well be match altering decisions, but are no worse
than some of the goal scoring opportunities the players miss
during EVERY game.
>
> Yes, action need to be taken to eliminate these mistakes, but
the impact needs to be viewed in context of the season and how
many mistakes the players make.
>
> If we are dismissing the officials for just these, then any
player who misses an "open goal" or a "one on one" should also
be dismissed.
>
--- End Quote ---
But this is what happens. Players who make mistakes are dropped
by their managers to the bench and don't play. If a player
persistently underperforms then they are sold to lesser clubs.
The consequences for players performing poorly is much greater
than officials. How many years has Lee Mason been persistently
underperforming? And yet here he is, still doing the same thing,
over and over again.
Howard Webb clearly is going big on the "respect" the officials
campaign, as we have seen with the Lemina red card and the Dias
yellow yesterday. Players should not be going out of their way
to harass officials - but I do think player behaviour is worse
when there is a lack of trust/confidence in officials to make
the right decision. I don't think it is any coincidence that
player behaviour towards match officials has deteriorated this
season with probably the least experienced and weakest group of
SG1 officials I can remember.
[/quote]
It happens when players make mistake after mistake after
mistake. it is very rare for a striker to be dropped for
missing a couple of chances, or a defender for giving away a
couple of goals.
A very high percentage of refereeing decisions are correct,
whether made on pitch or by VAR, certainly far higher than the
percentage of good decisions made by even the very best players.
It makes sense to take a referee who has made a serious error
out of the limelight for a few days or a week, but they need to
be getting things wrong every game to be rested for any length
of time or even reclassified to a lower level.
[/quote]
If you read my post again, that is exactly what I said and why I
have used Lee Mason as my example for this rather than Brooks,
as I believe at this point Mason really does fall into this
category. As another poster has already stated, players make
on-field mistakes in split seconds in the heat of the moment as
do on-field referees. VAR officials are not in the same
position, so the analogy of comparing their mistakes to those of
players/referees making mistakes in real time is not a fair one
IMO.
#Post#: 59893--------------------------------------------------
Re: Webb Calls emergency meeting
DIR By: TVOS
Date: February 13, 2023, 4:27 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: ClaretandBlue06 link ---
>
> Have appointments been delayed in the EFL due to this? I know
SG2 haven’t been called but they are usually out for EFL clubs
with SG1 blank until tonight’s game has finished
>
--- End Quote ---
They were out at about five-past four, as normal.
#Post#: 59895--------------------------------------------------
Re: Webb Calls emergency meeting
DIR By: Readingfan
Date: February 13, 2023, 4:29 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
The ESPN article suggests Lee Mason has been judged to have made
6 mistakes as a VAR this season. If that's right, and I can
certainly think of quite a few decisions he's been criticised
for, then I'd say that's a lot at this stage of the season.
#Post#: 59900--------------------------------------------------
Re: Webb Calls emergency meeting
DIR By: Claretman
Date: February 13, 2023, 4:56 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
Let us be frank, whilst we have var it will never be perfect as
human beings are involved.
Human error is a fact of life, i am sure those in var this
weekend who have made mistakes will be very upset with
themselves and i hope they have the mental strength to recover
quickly.
We should be striving to avoid making as many mistakes as with
all walks of life, but we will never eradicate them fully.
#Post#: 59906--------------------------------------------------
Re: Webb Calls emergency meeting
DIR By: Ivanhoe
Date: February 13, 2023, 5:25 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
At least Howard Webb appears to be making a concerted effort to
improve the use of VAR, with Riley it just seemed to drift along
from one error to another, week by week.
Hopefully there is some form of press release after this meeting
so we can see what the future may bring.
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