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#Post#: 58382--------------------------------------------------
Re: Stuart Attwell (Man United vs Manchester City)
DIR By: Ref Fan
Date: January 16, 2023, 7:25 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Readingfan link ---
>
> Stephen Warnock said on Ref Watch 'I go to co-commentate on
games now and I've no idea what the offside law is and haven't
for the last few years'. I think the suggestion was we were
meant to regard that as someone else's fault but I'd put a fair
amount of the blame on him given the laws are publicly available
to access and he gets paid for appearing on a show called Ref
Watch.
>
> I think it would be good for Webb/PGMO to come out and provide
their views on this, and perhaps also release some of the audio
of the discussion. If they're really going to make some positive
changes then this would be a good place to start.
>
--- End Quote ---
To be fair to him, I suspect Warnock was meaning how to
interpret certain aspects of the Offside Law rather than an
overriding lack of knowledge about it. What constitutes
"impacting" an opponent may be clear in some instances but less
so in others, and I would contend that Saturday's incident would
fall into the latter category. Can you assert that Rashford
impacted on those 2 players; is it a reasonable assumption he
did; or merely supposition that he may have done? For example,
what is the evidence that Ederson was clearly expecting a shot
from Rashford?
I certainly agree it would be good to hear from Webb / PGMO on
this.
#Post#: 58383--------------------------------------------------
Re: Stuart Attwell (Man United vs Manchester City)
DIR By: nemesis
Date: January 16, 2023, 7:30 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Readingfan link ---
>
> Stephen Warnock said on Ref Watch 'I go to co-commentate on
games now and I've no idea what the offside law is and haven't
for the last few years'. I think the suggestion was we were
meant to regard that as someone else's fault but I'd put a fair
amount of the blame on him given the laws are publicly available
to access and he gets paid for appearing on a show called Ref
Watch.
>
> I think it would be good for Webb/PGMO to come out and provide
their views on this, and perhaps also release some of the audio
of the discussion. If they're really going to make some positive
changes then this would be a good place to start.
>
--- End Quote ---
Based on the empirical evidence gained from watching matches, I
can understand how anyone could fail to grasp how this crazy Law
works.
Week in, week out, I see Assistants flagging players offside who
are clearly not active and not meeting the criteria for
committing an offside offence. It happened twice in a top League
One match on Saturday (by a presumably SG2 Assistant) and
regularly at the many games I watch at Non-league steps 1 to 4.
By and large, nobody seems to mind very much - I suspect due to
lack of awareness of this arcane legislation.
#Post#: 58384--------------------------------------------------
Re: Stuart Attwell (Man United vs Manchester City)
DIR By: Readingfan
Date: January 16, 2023, 8:22 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Ref Fan link ---
>
> [quote author=Readingfan link=topic=4428.msg58381#msg58381
date=1673873731]
> Stephen Warnock said on Ref Watch 'I go to co-commentate on
games now and I've no idea what the offside law is and haven't
for the last few years'. I think the suggestion was we were
meant to regard that as someone else's fault but I'd put a fair
amount of the blame on him given the laws are publicly available
to access and he gets paid for appearing on a show called Ref
Watch.
>
> I think it would be good for Webb/PGMO to come out and provide
their views on this, and perhaps also release some of the audio
of the discussion. If they're really going to make some positive
changes then this would be a good place to start.
>
--- End Quote ---
To be fair to him, I suspect Warnock was meaning how to
interpret certain aspects of the Offside Law rather than an
overriding lack of knowledge about it. What constitutes
"impacting" an opponent may be clear in some instances but less
so in others, and I would contend that Saturday's incident would
fall into the latter category. Can you assert that Rashford
impacted on those 2 players; is it a reasonable assumption he
did; or merely supposition that he may have done? For example,
what is the evidence that Ederson was clearly expecting a shot
from Rashford?
I certainly agree it would be good to hear from Webb / PGMO on
this.
[/quote]
Well, Warnock did say that Rashford had to be interfering with
play which was certainly incorrect if he didn't touch the ball.
If Warnock had said that there has often been inconsistency over
the years in how officials enforce offside then he might have
had a point.
#Post#: 58385--------------------------------------------------
Re: Stuart Attwell (Man United vs Manchester City)
DIR By: Bluekipper
Date: January 16, 2023, 8:28 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Readingfan link ---
>
> Stephen Warnock said on Ref Watch 'I go to co-commentate on
games now and I've no idea what the offside law is and haven't
for the last few years'. I think the suggestion was we were
meant to regard that as someone else's fault but I'd put a fair
amount of the blame on him given the laws are publicly available
to access and he gets paid for appearing on a show called Ref
Watch.
>
> I think it would be good for Webb/PGMO to come out and provide
their views on this, and perhaps also release some of the audio
of the discussion. If they're really going to make some positive
changes then this would be a good place to start.
>
--- End Quote ---
I admire Stephen Warnock for his honesty about the offside law.
I just wish his fellow commentators (mostly ex-pros) would stick
to giving advice on play and NOT on refereeing which many of
them know very little about.
#Post#: 58416--------------------------------------------------
Re: Stuart Attwell (Man United vs Manchester City)
DIR By: Leggy
Date: January 16, 2023, 11:23 am
---------------------------------------------------------
The problems with both offside and handball are a result of the
Laws being endlessly "tweaked" because we seem to have an
unquenchable desire for "clarity".
Go back 20 years and both were left to the interpretation of the
referee and their assistants. As a result we had inconsistency,
arguments, frustration and a desire for something to be done to
make it better.
Are we in anything like a better place today?
#Post#: 58419--------------------------------------------------
Re: Stuart Attwell (Man United vs Manchester City)
DIR By: Seagull
Date: January 16, 2023, 11:48 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Leggy link ---
>
> The problems with both offside and handball are a result of
the Laws being endlessly "tweaked" because we seem to have an
unquenchable desire for "clarity".
>
> Go back 20 years and both were left to the interpretation of
the referee and their assistants. As a result we had
inconsistency, arguments, frustration and a desire for something
to be done to make it better.
>
> Are we in anything like a better place today?
>
--- End Quote ---
Not in my opinion, no. Both laws are as clear as mud now.
#Post#: 58420--------------------------------------------------
Re: Stuart Attwell (Man United vs Manchester City)
DIR By: Acme Thunderer
Date: January 16, 2023, 11:51 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Writing in The Times, Henry Winter suggests that Rashford was
offside because he drew his foot back and shaped to shoot, thus
putting off the City defenders and goalie. Having now seen the
incident on MOTD for the first time, I have to say I agree with
Winter. If Rashford had stood still, I would have been prepared
to say he was not interfering with play, but by shaping to
shoot, he most definitely was interfering and the goal should in
my view have been disallowed.
#Post#: 58425--------------------------------------------------
Re: Stuart Attwell (Man United vs Manchester City)
DIR By: Claretman
Date: January 16, 2023, 12:47 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Acme Thunderer link ---
>
> Writing in The Times, Henry Winter suggests that Rashford was
offside because he drew his foot back and shaped to shoot, thus
putting off the City defenders and goalie. Having now seen the
incident on MOTD for the first time, I have to say I agree with
Winter. If Rashford had stood still, I would have been prepared
to say he was not interfering with play, but by shaping to
shoot, he most definitely was interfering and the goal should in
my view have been disallowed.
>
--- End Quote ---
Agreed.
Something i was trying to say earlier in the thread but probably
clumsily.
Quote:
Could one say that by rashford running about thirty yards
towards the ball that he was attempting to play the ball ?.
In most cases if a player thinks he is offside he refrains from
moving towards the ball, usually by standing motionless.
Personally with the two attackers standing so close to one
another when the shot is taken and both those players coming
from quite a considerable distance they are both active and
interfering with play,
Unquote:
Admittedly i missed adding that Rashford started to pull the
trigger for a shot.
I am with Dermot, i think i would have stuck with Darren Cann’s
original decision but would like to hear the conversation by the
two of them.
Definitely a subjective decision for var couldnt intervene,i
liked also the frame shown with Rashford airbrushed out to show
how different the situation would have looked to defenders and
goalkeeper.
An old saying from a senior referee to me on the line rings in
my ears, i would rather have a debateable offside than a
debateable goal.
#Post#: 58509--------------------------------------------------
Re: Stuart Attwell (Man United vs Manchester City)
DIR By: Microscopist
Date: January 18, 2023, 12:52 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
HTML https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/64322063
The unfortunately, or maybe appropriately, named Mr Bullingham
(Head of the FA) has put out minds at rest concerning the
offside law as highlighted in Saturday's game. Following a
meeting of IFAB -
"Guidance around offside decisions initially relayed last summer
was made law, including the issue of players interfering with
play.
The controversy around Manchester United's equalising goal
against Manchester City on Saturday was discussed and whether it
was felt there is a loophole in the law that needs to be closed.
"The conclusion was there is no gap in the law," said
Bullingham.
Meantime allowing fans to hear communications between officials
is on a slow boat to somewhere starting in Morocco and visiting
Indonesia and Australia and New Zealand over the next 12
months......
So, all is well.
#Post#: 58530--------------------------------------------------
Re: Stuart Attwell (Man United vs Manchester City)
DIR By: Claretman
Date: January 18, 2023, 4:39 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Microscopist link ---
>
>
HTML https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/64322063
>
> The unfortunately, or maybe appropriately, named Mr Bullingham
(Head of the FA) has put out minds at rest concerning the
offside law as highlighted in Saturday's game. Following a
meeting of IFAB -
>
> "Guidance around offside decisions initially relayed last
summer was made law, including the issue of players interfering
with play.
> The controversy around Manchester United's equalising goal
against Manchester City on Saturday was discussed and whether it
was felt there is a loophole in the law that needs to be closed.
> "The conclusion was there is no gap in the law," said
Bullingham.
>
> Meantime allowing fans to hear communications between
officials is on a slow boat to somewhere starting in Morocco and
visiting Indonesia and Australia and New Zealand over the next
12 months......
>
> So, all is well.
>
--- End Quote ---
As i read that we are still none the wiser as to whether the
correct call was made, i guess as it is subjective there is no
wrong call, ie it is down to interpretation of the referee on
the day.
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