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#Post#: 58241--------------------------------------------------
Re: Stuart Attwell (Man United vs Manchester City)
DIR By: ajb95
Date: January 14, 2023, 11:41 am
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Just seen the highlights and agree with posters early on the
thread. As per the LOTG a goal is the only thing that can be
awarded. Spiritually/morally should it stand - probably not.
The laws need a good rewrite
#Post#: 58243--------------------------------------------------
Re: Stuart Attwell (Man United vs Manchester City)
DIR By: Joecphillips
Date: January 14, 2023, 11:44 am
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I have 0 skin in the game here, former premier league referees
have admit they and others were scared of giving decisions
against man utd at old Trafford so didn't.
He impacted how the defenders had to play the situation if the
defender had cleaned him out would it be a free kick to man city
for offside?
The keeper has to prepare to stop a shot from rashford and does
so appropriately meaning he isn't able to react to the fernandes
shot
#Post#: 58245--------------------------------------------------
Re: Stuart Attwell (Man United vs Manchester City)
DIR By: Affy_Moose
Date: January 14, 2023, 11:47 am
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I’m just okay with this goal.
There are two primary considerations, as it’s obvious that
Rashford did not touch the ball.
- Did Rashford’s movement/positioning block or interfere with
Akanji’s ability to defend/challenge/ play the ball? That’s what
I looked for, and I’m not at all convinced he was impacted. It’s
certainly debatable, but it’s also not clear - the doubt would
therefore be to remain with the status quo.
- Did Rashford, by leaving the ball at the last second, impact
the goalkeeper’s vision or decision making? I’d also say it
didn’t.
Ordinarily, these types of considerations are made for instances
like crosses into the area, when the goalkeeper or defenders are
clearly impacted.
Rashford and Fernandes took up the same space on the pitch when
the ball was struck, and at no point did Ederson need to change
his position.
I’m comfortable with the Law 11 interpretation, and also quite
pleased that it was done on the field of play.
#Post#: 58253--------------------------------------------------
Re: Stuart Attwell (Man United vs Manchester City)
DIR By: Midlander
Date: January 14, 2023, 11:57 am
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So Stuart Atwell must be deemed the same as others? Really?
Please re watch it and look at the defenders. He has ZERO impact
on them.
The keeper had a clear view of the ball the whole time and the
Fernandes shot. It doesn’t affect the ability to react. If you
chalk or goals every time someone in an offside position moves
near the ball then we will start seeing 0-0 everywhere.
As for the FK it’s not a valid point. The defenders were no
where near so couldn’t have wiped him out!!
--- Quote from: Joecphillips link ---
>
> I have 0 skin in the game here, former premier league referees
have admit they and others were scared of giving decisions
against man utd at old Trafford so didn't.
>
> He impacted how the defenders had to play the situation if the
defender had cleaned him out would it be a free kick to man city
for offside?
>
> The keeper has to prepare to stop a shot from rashford and
does so appropriately meaning he isn't able to react to the
fernandes shot
>
--- End Quote ---
#Post#: 58270--------------------------------------------------
Re: Stuart Attwell (Man United vs Manchester City)
DIR By: Claretman
Date: January 14, 2023, 3:19 pm
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Whilst i agree that the decision was correct to award the goal
in law, i like ajb think it is morally wrong, i also think when
the defender makes a play for ball the striker is no longer
offside is morally wrong.
Why not make things simple and abolish offside altogether.
#Post#: 58278--------------------------------------------------
Re: Stuart Attwell (Man United vs Manchester City)
DIR By: PhiltheRef
Date: January 14, 2023, 4:42 pm
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Or perhaps go back to when myself and many others began.
Offside was Offside!!
#Post#: 58282--------------------------------------------------
Re: Stuart Attwell (Man United vs Manchester City)
DIR By: Microscopist
Date: January 14, 2023, 4:57 pm
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--- Quote from: Ref Fan link ---
>
> [quote author=Readingfan link=topic=4428.msg58232#msg58232
date=1673712050]
> Was it an on-field decision in the end to award the goal or
did it come from VAR?
>
--- End Quote ---
Once it was established Rashford didn't touch the ball, isn't it
then a subjective decision as to whether he was interfering with
an opponent? I believe VAR only deals with offsides that are
deemed factual. There could have been chat between referee and
VAR, and there have been incidents previously when VAR has
advised an OFR
to assess whether or not there is interference. It appeared to
me that Attwell took the view that Rashford was not interfering
and that therefore Oliver wouldn't get further involved.
[/quote] I guess that if I were a United fan I'd make a similar
argument. Of course we don't know what interaction there was
between the onfield opfficials and VAR (and it is rather worse
at United and Liverpool as I understand they don't even have
screens for the spectators to be advised of what is going on.
And we saw another shambles at Anfield in the week.)
However you migth expect me to see things differently.
The offside law states (I think we all agree tha Rachford was in
an offside position when the ball was played):-
2. Offside offence
A player in an offside position at the moment the ball is played
or touched* by a team-mate is only penalised on becoming
involved in active play by:
interfering with play by playing or touching a ball passed
or touched by a team-mate or
interfering with an opponent by:
preventing an opponent from playing or being able to
play the ball by clearly obstructing the opponent’s line of
vision or
challenging an opponent for the ball or
clearly attempting to play a ball which is close when
this action impacts on an opponent or
making an obvious action which clearly impacts on the
ability of an opponent to play the ball
or
gaining an advantage by playing the ball or interfering with
an opponent when it has:
rebounded or been deflected off the goalpost, crossbar
or an opponent
been deliberately saved by any opponent
A player in an offside position receiving the ball from an
opponent who deliberately plays the ball, including by
deliberate handball, is not considered to have gained an
advantage, unless it was a deliberate save by any opponent.
A ‘save’ is when a player stops, or attempts to stop, a ball
which is going into or very close to the goal with any part of
the body except the hands/arms (unless the goalkeeper within the
penalty area).
In situations where:
a player moving from, or standing in, an offside position is
in the way of an opponent and interferes with the movement of
the opponent towards the ball this is an offside offence if it
impacts on the ability of the opponent to play or challenge for
the ball; if the player moves into the way of an opponent and
impedes the opponent's progress (e.g blocks the opponent) the
offence should be penalised under Law 12
a player in an offside position is moving towards the ball
with the intention of playing the ball and is fouled before
playing or attempting to play the ball, or challenging an
opponent for the ball, the foul is penalised as it has occurred
before the offside offence
an offence is committed against a player in an offside
position who is already playing or attempting to play the ball,
or challenging an opponent for the ball, the offside offence is
penalised as it has occurred before the foul challenge
*The first point of contact of the 'play' or 'touch' of the ball
should be used.
--- Quote from: Affy_Moose link ---
>
> I’m just okay with this goal.
>
> There are two primary considerations, as it’s obvious that
Rashford did not touch the ball.
>
> - Did Rashford’s movement/positioning block or interfere with
Akanji’s ability to defend/challenge/ play the ball? That’s what
I looked for, and I’m not at all convinced he was impacted. It’s
certainly debatable, but it’s also not clear - the doubt would
therefore be to remain with the status quo.
>
> - Did Rashford, by leaving the ball at the last second, impact
the goalkeeper’s vision or decision making? I’d also say it
didn’t.
>
> Ordinarily, these types of considerations are made for
instances like crosses into the area, when the goalkeeper or
defenders are clearly impacted.
>
> Rashford and Fernandes took up the same space on the pitch
when the ball was struck, and at no point did Ederson need to
change his position.
>
> I’m comfortable with the Law 11 interpretation, and also quite
pleased that it was done on the field of play.
>
--- End Quote ---
Affy Moose identifies two significant elements :-
1 Does the attacker interfere with the defender's ability to
defend?
[img]
HTML https://scontent.fgla3-2.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/325668484_1287978038415689_7849828572209617197_n.jpg?stp=dst-jpg_p180x540&_nc_cat=1&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=8bfeb9&_nc_ohc=SWnrhh-oIjEAX9bgNn5&_nc_ht=scontent.fgla3-2.fna&oh=00_AfDfLZTx23Ye8YHSgUgBXwSHdCmf3-INYYn4XI8JIjn4aw&oe=63C83DDD[/img]
At this point Akinji and Fernandez look to me to be more or less
equidistant from the ball, but Akinji cannot run directly to the
ball because Rachford is in a direct line between Akinji and the
ball - hence Akinji's ability to defend the ball is clearly
impeded. Who would have got to the ball first is a guess - the
ball was running slightly in Fernandez favour but Akinji could
have slid in to touch the ball away whilst Fernandez had to
actually be able to get a shot away. So I think that with
Rachford out of the way it is a fairly even race for the ball.
2 Did the possibility that either Rachford or Fernandez might
have played the ball impact on Ederson's decision making?
Affy Moose's opinion is based on a physical impossibility -
Rachford and Fernandez cannot occupy the same space. One is to
the left of the ball the other is to the right of the ball the
other is to the left of the ball, one will strike the ball with
his left foot one with his right - it is more likely that
Rachford will shoot to Ederson's right and Fernandez to
Ederson's left. So in my opinion Edersons decision making is
impacted by Rachford leaving the ball at the last moment.
#Post#: 58286--------------------------------------------------
Re: Stuart Attwell (Man United vs Manchester City)
DIR By: Joecphillips
Date: January 14, 2023, 5:32 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
If a striker in an offside position makes a move influencing how
the keeper has to play the ball it's offside the keeper is set
up for rashford to shoot.
You are guessing fernandes wins the race he is a similar
distance away from the ball but the defender would have to come
through the back of rashford to win it so can't compete
#Post#: 58287--------------------------------------------------
Re: Stuart Attwell (Man United vs Manchester City)
DIR By: Gorgeous George
Date: January 14, 2023, 5:49 pm
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For me, the right decision was reached. But I do admit it is
morally flawed as the whole football world expects offside.
The argument about the defenders is flawed for me, as neither
defender ever made an effort to challenge for the ball or chase
back fully. On that basis alone he can’t have impacted them in
my opinion. I would suggest that if either made a genuine
attempt to challenge then it would have been a different
outcome. A typical one of the old saying… “play to the whistle”
#Post#: 58289--------------------------------------------------
Re: Stuart Attwell (Man United vs Manchester City)
DIR By: jacksamuel21
Date: January 14, 2023, 6:27 pm
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For me it’s no different to all those times when a free kick is
taken. Someone who is offside(in front of defender) runs and
jumps to head the ball. Defender’s vision and ability to play
the ball is clearly decreased. Guy stood behind the defender
(onside position) heads it in. Goal gets given. What’s the
difference?
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