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#Post#: 57487--------------------------------------------------
Re: Attwell; Leeds United vs Manchester City
DIR By: Microscopist
Date: December 29, 2022, 3:55 pm
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--- Quote ---
> Feels like personal feelings are clouding judgments here IMO.
--- End Quote ---
--- Quote ---
> I must have been watching a totally different game as, aside
from a missed corner, I can't think of much he got wrong at all.
--- End Quote ---
We all watch through different eyes, with our own expertise,
experiences, preferences and prejudices - and that is the point
of a forum like this. It is possible to take each decision in
isolation and justify it but I like to think that the same
criteria will apply for fouls and cards from the first minute to
the last. That didn't seem to me to be the case in this game.
#Post#: 57488--------------------------------------------------
Re: Attwell; Leeds United vs Manchester City
DIR By: rustyref
Date: December 29, 2022, 4:11 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Microscopist link ---
>
> [quote]Feels like personal feelings are clouding judgments
here IMO.
--- End Quote ---
--- Quote ---
> I must have been watching a totally different game as, aside
from a missed corner, I can't think of much he got wrong at all.
--- End Quote ---
We all watch through different eyes, with our own expertise,
experiences, preferences and prejudices - and that is the point
of a forum like this. It is possible to take each decision in
isolation and justify it but I like to think that the same
criteria will apply for fouls and cards from the first minute to
the last. That didn't seem to me to be the case in this game.
[/quote]
That isn't how referees are trained these days though. Even the
promotion criteria talks about how they need to raise their
involvement as the tempo rises, what isn't a foul or caution in
the first half might well be in the second half.
#Post#: 57491--------------------------------------------------
Re: Attwell; Leeds United vs Manchester City
DIR By: bruntyboy
Date: December 29, 2022, 5:02 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: rustyref link ---
>
> [quote author=Microscopist link=topic=4366.msg57487#msg57487
date=1672350938]
> [quote]Feels like personal feelings are clouding judgments
here IMO.
--- End Quote ---
--- Quote ---
> I must have been watching a totally different game as, aside
from a missed corner, I can't think of much he got wrong at all.
--- End Quote ---
We all watch through different eyes, with our own expertise,
experiences, preferences and prejudices - and that is the point
of a forum like this. It is possible to take each decision in
isolation and justify it but I like to think that the same
criteria will apply for fouls and cards from the first minute to
the last. That didn't seem to me to be the case in this game.
[/quote]
That isn't how referees are trained these days though. Even the
promotion criteria talks about how they need to raise their
involvement as the tempo rises, what isn't a foul or caution in
the first half might well be in the second half.
[/quote]
To fans there is the nub of the problem. Why is it fair to
referee the game differently in the second half especially when
a caution might then mean 2YC for a player and yet another
player escapes with only 1YC as he didn't get a YC in the first
half? Also why is it fair for cup games or "Derby" matches to be
refereed differently to other matches?
What also gets fans riled is when a "foul" is not given and then
30 seconds later a very similar incident occurs the other way
and a foul is given.
On commentary last night Ally McCoist said "I don't mind the
referee giving/not giving fouls as long as he is consistent".
#Post#: 57501--------------------------------------------------
Re: Attwell; Leeds United vs Manchester City
DIR By: RCG
Date: December 30, 2022, 1:17 am
---------------------------------------------------------
For many years the guidance was 15 minute refereeing, judging
your involvement based on mood of players and temperature of
game. This would often lead to fouls being given at certain
points rather than allowing advantage or even where contact had
been permitted earlier.
Yes, this would lead to inconsistency but it was about managing
the match in front of you.
I would often say to ARs we will let the players have the first
10 minutes and see what they want to do with the game. If they
were listening, responding, playing we kept out the way.
Otherwise, we stepped.in.
This did not include ignoring YCs for mandatory cautions or
"managing" red cards.
#Post#: 57527--------------------------------------------------
Re: Attwell; Leeds United vs Manchester City
DIR By: rustyref
Date: December 30, 2022, 9:38 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: bruntyboy link ---
>
> [quote author=rustyref link=topic=4366.msg57488#msg57488
date=1672351917]
> [quote author=Microscopist link=topic=4366.msg57487#msg57487
date=1672350938]
> [quote]Feels like personal feelings are clouding judgments
here IMO.
--- End Quote ---
--- Quote ---
> I must have been watching a totally different game as, aside
from a missed corner, I can't think of much he got wrong at all.
--- End Quote ---
We all watch through different eyes, with our own expertise,
experiences, preferences and prejudices - and that is the point
of a forum like this. It is possible to take each decision in
isolation and justify it but I like to think that the same
criteria will apply for fouls and cards from the first minute to
the last. That didn't seem to me to be the case in this game.
[/quote]
That isn't how referees are trained these days though. Even the
promotion criteria talks about how they need to raise their
involvement as the tempo rises, what isn't a foul or caution in
the first half might well be in the second half.
[/quote]
To fans there is the nub of the problem. Why is it fair to
referee the game differently in the second half especially when
a caution might then mean 2YC for a player and yet another
player escapes with only 1YC as he didn't get a YC in the first
half? Also why is it fair for cup games or "Derby" matches to be
refereed differently to other matches?
What also gets fans riled is when a "foul" is not given and then
30 seconds later a very similar incident occurs the other way
and a foul is given.
On commentary last night Ally McCoist said "I don't mind the
referee giving/not giving fouls as long as he is consistent".
[/quote]
Because if referees didn't take that approach, and they have
done for many decades, you would have one of two scenarios
happening.
- Loads more players would get cautioned and sent off as
referees wouldn't be able to take a relaxed approach, they'd
essentially have to assume every game was likely to kick off.
- If they didn't do the above, there would be a lot more games
with aggro and with the referees struggling to keep control.
A key tool for good referees is knowing when to get the cards
out. Too early and you risk double figures of cards, too late
and you risk losing control of games. Of course there will be
some incidents that are a card no matter what game they happen
in and at any time in the game, but the majority can be in the
opinion of the referee.
#Post#: 57572--------------------------------------------------
Re: Attwell; Leeds United vs Manchester City
DIR By: Microscopist
Date: December 31, 2022, 3:09 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote ---
> Because if referees didn't take that approach, and they have
done for many decades, you would have one of two scenarios
happening.
>
> - Loads more players would get cautioned and sent off as
referees wouldn't be able to take a relaxed approach, they'd
essentially have to assume every game was likely to kick off.
>
> - If they didn't do the above, there would be a lot more games
with aggro and with the referees struggling to keep control.
>
> A key tool for good referees is knowing when to get the cards
out. Too early and you risk double figures of cards, too late
and you risk losing control of games. Of course there will be
some incidents that are a card no matter what game they happen
in and at any time in the game, but the majority can be in the
opinion of the referee.
--- End Quote ---
I beg to differ from that analysis.
But what we do have now is a set up where players know that they
have some licence at the start of a game and can “rough up”
opponents which creates a poor spirit in the game. In my view
this happened in the Leeds v City game where Grealish and the
young lad Lewis were given the treatment. There is nothing new
in this, my Dad who was a part time professional in the early
30’s spoke of full backs clobbering their winger at the first
opportunity, “to let them know they were there”. This approach
just encourages that. Mike Doyle’s first game for City was at
Cardiff and he was clobbered early on. Johnny Crossan came up to
him and said to him, you just play your game son I’ll deal with
him. Shortly afterwards the “offender” found himself on the
ground being walked over by Crossan – not something that would
be possible now with all the TV cameras around, but it deterred
him from any further rough stuff.
So what do I think would happen if referees didn’t have such a
wide margin around a happy medium. Well players would either
learn what was expected of them and keep within the accepted
norms, or would spend most of their time suspended. So things
would pretty soon settle down and it would be easier to work out
what the laws of the game are than is the case at present.
But putting that philosophy aside:- on 61m29s a Leeds player
runs 10 yards, in full view of the referee, to knock Lewis to
the ground from behind. Lewis has played the ball back to
Akanji and the ball is about 8 or 9 yds away when Lewis is
assaulted. The referee allows play to go on although the Leeds
defence is in position, Akanji is isolated and the ball is
around 10 yds closer to the City goal than the position from
which a free kick should have been taken – so no advantage in
playing on. There is a slight “calm down” hand movement from
the referee but no clear “advantage” signal. The challenge is
not in any way an attempt to play the ball, it is totally
avoidable by the Leeds player and can only be seen as a
gratuitous attack on Lewis. In my view, a yellow card at least,
particularly if you are wanting to stop the game getting out of
control. Less than10 seconds later Gnonto running towards the
City penalty area cuts across the path of Lewis, gets a touch on
the upper arm from Lewis, and collapses to the ground. Watching
the video this touch is the sort of touch that I get from my
BLFG when she wants to attract my attention to something, such
as when if I’m driving at 32mph in a 30mph zone – in 26 years
this touch has never caused me to collapse in heaps. So I’m
drawn to two conclusions either Gnonto dived or Lewis has some
supernatural power in the form of a Vulcan style death touch
where someone is temporally paralysed by the touch of his hand.
I figure the former is the more likely but the referee in this
case has bought the foul, hook line and sinker and awards not
just a free kick but issues a yellow card to Lewis. From the
referee’s position I would say that he has no idea at all what
the nature of the touch on the arm is and has simply guessed
from Gnonto’s antics to make his decision. Perhaps more time
training referees to recognise simulated “fouls” rather than
“game management” would be more productive.
Lewis pushed to the floor from behind by a Leeds player who has
run 10 yards to do so and continues even though Lewis has long
since played the ball to Akanji,
[img]
HTML https://dail.me.uk/____impro/1/onewebmedia/Screenshot%20at%202022-12-30%2011-58-46.png?etag=W%2F%226698c-63b02f78%22&sourceContentType=image%2Fpng&ignoreAspectRatio&resize=300%2B170&extract=0%2B0%2B300%2B170[/img]
A few seconds later Gnonto running towards the penalty area cuts
across the path of the following Lewis, feels a slight touch and
falls to the ground. From the referee's position I think it is
unlikely that he can make a sensible judgement on the nature of
the coming together.
[img]
HTML https://dail.me.uk/____impro/1/onewebmedia/Screenshot%20at%202022-12-31%2012-37-05.png?etag=%224d1ae-63b02f54%22&sourceContentType=image%2Fpng&ignoreAspectRatio&resize=300%2B168&extract=0%2B0%2B300%2B168[/img]
Side view replay of the contact.
[img]
HTML https://dail.me.uk/____impro/1/onewebmedia/Screenshot%20at%202022-12-30%2012-03-08.png?etag=%2263bdc-63b02f67%22&sourceContentType=image%2Fpng&ignoreAspectRatio&resize=300%2B167&extract=0%2B0%2B300%2B167[/img]
#Post#: 57578--------------------------------------------------
Re: Attwell; Leeds United vs Manchester City
DIR By: Whistleblower
Date: January 1, 2023, 5:46 am
---------------------------------------------------------
"Letting them know you're there " is an very old practice as
Microscopist rightly identifies. There's a story I heard about
John Key ( though I'm sure it's also been attributed to others )
who gave a defender a right royal bollocking in the 3rd minute
of a match after he had put in a very meaty tackle. The old
excuse " I'm just letting him know I'm there " was trotted out
only for Key to reply " yes lad, and I'm just letting you know
I'm here so the next one goes in the book "
#Post#: 57614--------------------------------------------------
Re: Attwell; Leeds United vs Manchester City
DIR By: Microscopist
Date: January 1, 2023, 5:15 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Whistleblower link ---
>
> "Letting them know you're there " is an very old practice as
Microscopist rightly identifies. There's a story I heard about
John Key ( though I'm sure it's also been attributed to others )
who gave a defender a right royal bollocking in the 3rd minute
of a match after he had put in a very meaty tackle. The old
excuse " I'm just letting him know I'm there " was trotted out
only for Key to reply " yes lad, and I'm just letting you know
I'm here so the next one goes in the book "
>
--- End Quote ---
It is perhaps unfortunate that a latter day John Key wasn't
refereeing the City v Everton game. It might have made it a
more pleasant spectacle to watch, although I doubt it would have
altered the outcome.
#Post#: 57622--------------------------------------------------
Re: Attwell; Leeds United vs Manchester City
DIR By: Whistleblower
Date: January 2, 2023, 5:44 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Microscopist link ---
>
> [quote author=Whistleblower link=topic=4366.msg57578#msg57578
date=1672573570]
> "Letting them know you're there " is an very old practice as
Microscopist rightly identifies. There's a story I heard about
John Key ( though I'm sure it's also been attributed to others )
who gave a defender a right royal bollocking in the 3rd minute
of a match after he had put in a very meaty tackle. The old
excuse " I'm just letting him know I'm there " was trotted out
only for Key to reply " yes lad, and I'm just letting you know
I'm here so the next one goes in the book "
>
--- End Quote ---
It is perhaps unfortunate that a latter day John Key wasn't
refereeing the City v Everton game. It might have made it a
more pleasant spectacle to watch, although I doubt it would have
altered the outcome.
[/quote]
This begs the question ' Are there any latter day John Keys ? '
A more recently retired referee of that ilk was Mick Russell but
I think the mould is so constricted now I would doubt whether
such character traits would be allowed to progress to the top.
Refereeing is a more sanitized and carbolic practice than it was
in yesteryear.
#Post#: 57627--------------------------------------------------
Re: Attwell; Leeds United vs Manchester City
DIR By: Leggy
Date: January 2, 2023, 6:14 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Whistleblower link ---
>
> [quote author=Microscopist link=topic=4366.msg57614#msg57614
date=1672614942]
> [quote author=Whistleblower link=topic=4366.msg57578#msg57578
date=1672573570]
> "Letting them know you're there " is an very old practice as
Microscopist rightly identifies. There's a story I heard about
John Key ( though I'm sure it's also been attributed to others )
who gave a defender a right royal bollocking in the 3rd minute
of a match after he had put in a very meaty tackle. The old
excuse " I'm just letting him know I'm there " was trotted out
only for Key to reply " yes lad, and I'm just letting you know
I'm here so the next one goes in the book "
>
--- End Quote ---
It is perhaps unfortunate that a latter day John Key wasn't
refereeing the City v Everton game. It might have made it a
more pleasant spectacle to watch, although I doubt it would have
altered the outcome.
[/quote]
I don't know today's cohort of referees personally, but I
suspect you might be correct.
Referees of the 90's (when I knew and worked with quite a few of
them) seemed to be more diverse (in character if not in gender
or race) and many of them were enjoyable people to spend an
afternoon or evening with. I would be surprised if today's
cohort could match Brian Hill, Paul Taylor, Graham Barber, Allan
Gunn, Mick Pierce, David Axcell, Mick Fletcher, EJ Parker and
many others for their ability to have fun while doing their job.
Its probably fair to say that refereeing standards today are
higher and - for some - it is their "day job"; which might be a
factor. But given that it is a "game" to be enjoyed by everyone
involved and watching, maybe the balance today is not quite as
it ought to be?
This begs the question ' Are there any latter day John Keys ? '
A more recently retired referee of that ilk was Mick Russell but
I think the mould is so constricted now I would doubt whether
such character traits would be allowed to progress to the top.
Refereeing is a more sanitized and carbolic practice than it was
in yesteryear.
[/quote]
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