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#Post#: 56904--------------------------------------------------
Are you just as to blame ?? An interesting debate …
DIR By: Harry H
Date: December 15, 2022, 5:23 am
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Guys/ladies with the state of refereeing across the world in
decay, kind of reflected in the World Cup bar Oliver / Orsato/
Lahoz/ Claus / Ramos (until last night) who did well, and now
the potential debate of who Collina picks as the World Cup Final
ref … rumours are that there literally is no one else remaining
bar Marcinak who can realistically do it …… who has never had a
European Final and imo is a average ref, a good one but not in
the league of Rizzoli/Webb/Pitana … not even close. And
potentially we will decorate as a WC Final ref and then in turn
the World Best Ref. Not his problem he is only there to do his
best.
Imo it should be ONLY Ralphael Claus or Antony Taylor or Efaith
from who is left but Claus only 2 games same as Taylor. And with
Argentina in final there are now political reasons.
So my point to the post is a great debate on blog law5
attachment to post below and from 15/12/22 at 00:03 a post from
the respected blogger “Arbitro” frown Arbitro international
states a true clear fact no longer are referees referees they
are match managers no more.
HTML http://law5-theref.blogspot.com/2022/12/cesar-ramos-in-semifinal-france-morocco.html?m=1
Disregard for the LOAF, the new generations (what is coming
through) are no longer being shown the art of refereeing and
communicating to players, and distributing of justice (as refer
to in South America) just more a standard fits all way, with a
lack of personality, no real protection to the image of the
game, a game now which is not about skill and allowing this to
flourish but a desire only to just get through 90 minutes.
Give me Graham Poll / Durkin / Barber / Styles / Webb anyway
over the new breed who Adopt this new age way.
I use to fear Poll at Arsenal, but looking back he was a natural
referee.
So I Pose this question when you’re out in the parks / Supply Lg
/ Panal North and South / FL / SG2 and SG1 are you just a match
manager ? And happy with this ? Or you a true referee who is
there to enjoy the game / allow skill and great technique to
flourish and apply sanctions when due to those who put in bad
tackles ?? Instead of this over used term “he managed the game
well”
Is that in acknowledging the ref has let a lot go unpunished?
Allowed bad tackles ? And the skill then stops as the better
players no longer wish to play.
Personally I’m happy for the integrity I have shown and have
never changed this and will pass on my advice to the new
generation to apply Law, but I end with this:
“Imo one of the reasons there is such a shortage now of referees
across the world is the lack of quality good advice being
offered once qualified across the world referees are sent onto
parks at first and almost abandoned (I know there are some good
people who mentor those girls / guys but then that is it. So the
% who do advance develop really bad habits, and then go into
this obsessive over management bubble to which 75%\80% of games
are fine, but look at Arg v Hol last week, how many refs could
actually deal with that ??? Lahoz had the skills and the 17
cards but even he struggled.
It is an interesting debate and no way have I picked anyone out
by name, but more pose the question.
#Post#: 56912--------------------------------------------------
Re: Are you just as to blame ?? An interesting debate …
DIR By: nemesis
Date: December 15, 2022, 9:41 am
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--- Quote from: Harry H link ---
>
> Guys/ladies with the state of refereeing across the world in
decay, kind of reflected in the World Cup bar Oliver / Orsato/
Lahoz/ Claus / Ramos (until last night) who did well, and now
the potential debate of who Collina picks as the World Cup Final
ref … rumours are that there literally is no one else remaining
bar Marcinak who can realistically do it …… who has never had a
European Final and imo is a average ref, a good one but not in
the league of Rizzoli/Webb/Pitana … not even close. And
potentially we will decorate as a WC Final ref and then in turn
the World Best Ref. Not his problem he is only there to do his
best.
>
> Imo it should be ONLY Ralphael Claus or Antony Taylor or
Efaith from who is left but Claus only 2 games same as Taylor.
And with Argentina in final there are now political reasons.
>
> So my point to the post is a great debate on blog law5
attachment to post below and from 15/12/22 at 00:03 a post from
the respected blogger “Arbitro” frown Arbitro international
>
> states a true clear fact no longer are referees referees they
are match managers no more.
>
>
HTML http://law5-theref.blogspot.com/2022/12/cesar-ramos-in-semifinal-france-morocco.html?m=1
>
> Disregard for the LOAF, the new generations (what is coming
through) are no longer being shown the art of refereeing and
communicating to players, and distributing of justice (as refer
to in South America) just more a standard fits all way, with a
lack of personality, no real protection to the image of the
game, a game now which is not about skill and allowing this to
flourish but a desire only to just get through 90 minutes.
>
> Give me Graham Poll / Durkin / Barber / Styles / Webb anyway
over the new breed who Adopt this new age way.
>
> I use to fear Poll at Arsenal, but looking back he was a
natural referee.
>
> So I Pose this question when you’re out in the parks / Supply
Lg / Panal North and South / FL / SG2 and SG1 are you just a
match manager ? And happy with this ? Or you a true referee who
is there to enjoy the game / allow skill and great technique to
flourish and apply sanctions when due to those who put in bad
tackles ?? Instead of this over used term “he managed the game
well”
>
> Is that in acknowledging the ref has let a lot go unpunished?
Allowed bad tackles ? And the skill then stops as the better
players no longer wish to play.
>
> Personally I’m happy for the integrity I have shown and have
never changed this and will pass on my advice to the new
generation to apply Law, but I end with this:
>
> “Imo one of the reasons there is such a shortage now of
referees across the world is the lack of quality good advice
being offered once qualified across the world referees are sent
onto parks at first and almost abandoned (I know there are some
good people who mentor those girls / guys but then that is it.
So the % who do advance develop really bad habits, and then go
into this obsessive over management bubble to which 75%\80% of
games are fine, but look at Arg v Hol last week, how many refs
could actually deal with that ??? Lahoz had the skills and the
17 cards but even he struggled.
>
> It is an interesting debate and no way have I picked anyone
out by name, but more pose the question.
>
--- End Quote ---
Referees doing what is required of them by their employers,
administrators, assessors etc are most certainly not to blame.
There are few employees, who wish to continue to be employed,
who would not follow guidance from their employers.
The blame lies just about everywhere else. Administrators,
national and international associations, governing bodies etc
are all subject to reasonable accusations of self-interest,
often commercially based.
The players and coaches are not blameless either with their win
at all costs approach to the game.
#Post#: 56929--------------------------------------------------
Re: Are you just as to blame ?? An interesting debate …
DIR By: ajb95
Date: December 15, 2022, 10:53 am
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For me Poll was an arrogant **** who had a high opinion of
himself and thought many did too, but he used his ego to get
through games because he wasn’t that good. Styles is one of the
worst refs of that era I can remember along with Riley.
I agree with nemesis that the blame lies with national European
and international administrators who are far more interested in
the greed of a select few (I.e. the top clubs and nations) - and
want a piece of the action themselves - which has created
referees that are somewhat robotic in nature who can no longer
punish SFP/VC or frankly do anything that will spoil the
“entertainment” value of the sport. See why why PGMO is owned by
PL, a clear conflict of interest.
Secondly there is a societal problem that leads to thousand
leaving the profession each year (many of whom are newly
qualified) due to the inability to clamp down on serial and
serious offenders, who do nothing but promote abuse and violence
at football. Again a county and national administration problem.
#Post#: 56935--------------------------------------------------
Re: Are you just as to blame ?? An interesting debate …
DIR By: dave26
Date: December 15, 2022, 11:24 am
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I thought Alan Wiley was the best if not one of in the era of
Poll and Styles , really good man management of games and never
afraid to make the big decisions
For me sadly politics have to much control over football and
these days it’s politics and not performances that decide
appointments
#Post#: 56947--------------------------------------------------
Re: Are you just as to blame ?? An interesting debate …
DIR By: Blind Referee
Date: December 15, 2022, 2:02 pm
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In my opinion Graham Poll was the best referee we have had since
Jack Taylor - respected by players and managers, understood the
game and was a great man-manager - a skill very few referees now
have
Biggest issue we have now is most young referees who show any
sort of potential are moved into the FA CORE program where any
natural talent is drummed out of them and they are “coached” to
“please” the observer and referee to tick boxes without ever
understanding the game or learning how to man-manage - standard
of coaching offered is questionable at best
That’s why we aren’t producing the standards of referees we have
in the past
#Post#: 56949--------------------------------------------------
Re: Are you just as to blame ?? An interesting debate …
DIR By: rustyref
Date: December 15, 2022, 2:25 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Blind Referee link ---
>
> In my opinion Graham Poll was the best referee we have had
since Jack Taylor - respected by players and managers,
understood the game and was a great man-manager - a skill very
few referees now have
>
> Biggest issue we have now is most young referees who show any
sort of potential are moved into the FA CORE program where any
natural talent is drummed out of them and they are “coached” to
“please” the observer and referee to tick boxes without ever
understanding the game or learning how to man-manage - standard
of coaching offered is questionable at best
>
> That’s why we aren’t producing the standards of referees we
have in the past
>
--- End Quote ---
Apart from the facts don't quite match the narrative, in that
England have two of the top FIFA and UEFA referees at the
moment.
I agree to an extent about coaching, but a good coach will just
hone a referee's core skills and make him or her better that
way, not try to completely change how they referee. Of course,
there is an expectation about how referees operate, and much
less chance of getting "mavericks" as in the past, but that
doesn't mean we don't and won't create world class referees.
#Post#: 56950--------------------------------------------------
Re: Are you just as to blame ?? An interesting debate …
DIR By: Blind Referee
Date: December 15, 2022, 2:43 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
We have two very good Refs at the moment yes, but after that ?
Michael and Anthony “came through” before CORE and developed
naturally
The point I was making was about the type and quality of
coaching we have -that’s the issue and concern
#Post#: 56958--------------------------------------------------
Re: Are you just as to blame ?? An interesting debate …
DIR By: Harry H
Date: December 15, 2022, 6:09 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
Gents you all offer up some great talking points and debates !!
From “it now just a business / Entertainment” which is a true
point raised, to the one about FA Core was excellent, it so true
that anyone who shows a % of promise is moved onto this, drilled
down to be shown a mandate of what is expected and then you have
a production line of almost very similar referees, and then the
days of the personalities getting through like previous years is
slim to 0.
And those referees only get found out when they go a game that
requires a tough approach or a firm hand (Like Hol v Arg) which
again I thought Lahoz did well.
On the WC Subject it does show how much politics is a driving
force … and how little power Collina has, start of tournament
excellent all time wasting and lost time was given by more
stoppage time, which obviously the President didn’t like, so for
the last 16 to the Semi final we have been back at 3-6 max ! I
wonder how much longer Collina will dedicate himself to his
role.
But to sum this up I would love to see an image of refereeing in
2/3 years from now, because I don’t feel like I have seen any
new qualified officials yet this season and we are half way
through our UK domestic season. The passion that I once loved
and cared for has eradicated in front of my eyes.
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