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#Post#: 55794--------------------------------------------------
Quantity of Match Officials at the World Cup
DIR By: Ref Watcher
Date: November 28, 2022, 9:44 am
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i am a little bemused by the quantity of officials required for
a World Cup match. Apart from the three running about and those
in the VAR booth (five more according to the appointments) there
appear to be two referees acting as fourth officials. Neither
of these fourth officials are apparently able to program the
substitutes' board. This is a task allotted to someone sitting
at a table by the half way line. This official also seems to
have at least two assistants sitting with him.
I am not sure whether I should be outraged by the fact that,
despite this number of people being required, I have not had a
call up or whether I should be asking for a pay rise since I am
expected to carry out the whole substitution malarkey on my own
each week whilst simultaneously galloping (ish) up and down the
line. By FIFA's time and motion calculations I seem to be doing
at least six people's jobs at the same time.
#Post#: 55800--------------------------------------------------
Re: Quantity of Match Officials at the World Cup
DIR By: rustyref
Date: November 28, 2022, 11:00 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Each game has a 4th official who would replace the referee, and
a reserve assistant. This makes absolute sense as most of the
referees won't have waved a flag for decades, so asking them to
go on the line in a World Cup final game would be a huge risk.
The same has been done on English cup finals for a few years.
#Post#: 55869--------------------------------------------------
Re: Quantity of Match Officials at the World Cup
DIR By: Ref Watcher
Date: November 29, 2022, 4:55 am
---------------------------------------------------------
My post was a little tongue-in-cheek. I certainly accept the
good sense in having two specialist replacements available. Why
they both need to be involved in passing electronic boards to
each other baffles me somewhat. The purpose of the admin staff
at the nearby table is also not clear to me when the rest of us
seem to manage all the tasks on our own. And why an entire
office full of VARs is required for each game is completely
beyond me. It all seems like a job creation scheme to me.
#Post#: 55873--------------------------------------------------
Re: Quantity of Match Officials at the World Cup
DIR By: bmb
Date: November 29, 2022, 5:36 am
---------------------------------------------------------
4 of the VAR team are in the dedicated VAR centre. The VAR,
AVAR, OVAR and SVAR. The SVAR takes over monitoring play
developing if any of the other 3 are reviewing an incident. The
SAVAR is at the ground where there is a back up VAR room in case
the link/comms go down between the VAR centre and the ground.
If that were to happen the 4O moves into the VAR room in the
ground and takes over as VAR with the SAVAR taking over as AVAR
and the VAR team would operate as a team of 2 instead of 4. As
well as being the reserve AR to replace an injured AR, the 5th
official would also take over the role of 4O if the named 4O has
to move into the ground based VAR room.
It therefore makes sense that they are actively involved with
any substitutions etc and are maintaining a record of them,
along with any cards issued etc. incase they have to step in as
4O.
#Post#: 55918--------------------------------------------------
Re: Quantity of Match Officials at the World Cup
DIR By: cwh
Date: November 29, 2022, 10:29 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: bmb link ---
>
> 4 of the VAR team are in the dedicated VAR centre. The VAR,
AVAR, OVAR and SVAR. The SVAR takes over monitoring play
developing if any of the other 3 are reviewing an incident. The
SAVAR is at the ground where there is a back up VAR room in case
the link/comms go down between the VAR centre and the ground.
>
> If that were to happen the 4O moves into the VAR room in the
ground and takes over as VAR with the SAVAR taking over as AVAR
and the VAR team would operate as a team of 2 instead of 4. As
well as being the reserve AR to replace an injured AR, the 5th
official would also take over the role of 4O if the named 4O has
to move into the ground based VAR room.
>
> It therefore makes sense that they are actively involved with
any substitutions etc and are maintaining a record of them,
along with any cards issued etc. incase they have to step in as
4O.
>
--- End Quote ---
It all seems very complicated to me -I wonder how long that on
field match officals at this level will become redundant ?
#Post#: 55929--------------------------------------------------
Re: Quantity of Match Officials at the World Cup
DIR By: Whistleblower
Date: November 30, 2022, 10:42 am
---------------------------------------------------------
How Jack Taylor, Joe Worrall, George Courtney et al managed to
referee so efficiently and well despite not having this as huge
cadre of support officials is nothing short of a miracle.
Perhaps it was something to do with their abundant talent.
#Post#: 55943--------------------------------------------------
Re: Quantity of Match Officials at the World Cup
DIR By: bmb
Date: November 30, 2022, 12:09 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Whistleblower link ---
>
> How Jack Taylor, Joe Worrall, George Courtney et al managed to
referee so efficiently and well despite not having this as huge
cadre of support officials is nothing short of a miracle.
Perhaps it was something to do with their abundant talent.
>
--- End Quote ---
And the fact players did not spend 90 mins using any and every
form of the dark arts to try and con them. You can't compare
then & now, the game itself is so different. Back then many
players would have a cigarette at half time, some probably
accompanied by a pint. These days players, and the top top
referees, are super fit athletes, not even an ounce of fat on
them. There's a whole department dedicated to getting the right
nutrition. The game is played at probably double the speed and
is much more technical. Red card then was only given if multiple
bones were broken or the fire brigade had to be called out to
rescue said player on the wrong end of the tackle from the top
of the floodlights. The LOTG were simple and understandable,
these days you need a degree in contortionism to understand the
handball law and degrees in maths and science to understand
offside!! It was a lot more simpler, players got on and played,
referees got on and refereed. 1 shaky camera in the middle of
the main stand unlike the 24+ uber HD cameras of today, that can
have zoomed right in slo mo replays onto social media within
seconds. No social media... Managers didn't spend their entire
post match interview blaming the ref for a blade of grass being
0.000001mm longer than the one next to it, WWI, WWII and
probably WWIII and anything else that the ref is guilty of. A
global audience of millions and a media who join the managers in
blaming refs for all and sundry, whilst ignoring the bad
behaviour and unsportmenlike conduct of players. Top flight
games have literally millions riding on the result. I'd wager
they were no more accurate in decision making than their
counterparts of today but back then no-one took any notice, ref
error was no different to player error, a quick shrug and it was
forgotten, unlike these days where you still hear how terrible x
ref is because they made a poor game changing decision 10 years
ago and football still hasn't moved on from it!
#Post#: 55947--------------------------------------------------
Re: Quantity of Match Officials at the World Cup
DIR By: Leggy
Date: November 30, 2022, 12:22 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: bmb link ---
>
> [quote author=Whistleblower link=topic=4243.msg55929#msg55929
date=1669826566]
> How Jack Taylor, Joe Worrall, George Courtney et al managed to
referee so efficiently and well despite not having this as huge
cadre of support officials is nothing short of a miracle.
Perhaps it was something to do with their abundant talent.
>
--- End Quote ---
And the fact players did not spend 90 mins using any and every
form of the dark arts to try and con them. You can't compare
then & now, the game itself is so different. Back then many
players would have a cigarette at half time, some probably
accompanied by a pint. These days players, and the top top
referees, are super fit athletes, not even an ounce of fat on
them. There's a whole department dedicated to getting the right
nutrition. The game is played at probably double the speed and
is much more technical. Red card then was only given if multiple
bones were broken or the fire brigade had to be called out to
rescue said player on the wrong end of the tackle from the top
of the floodlights. The LOTG were simple and understandable,
these days you need a degree in contortionism to understand the
handball law and degrees in maths and science to understand
offside!! It was a lot more simpler, players got on and played,
referees got on and refereed. 1 shaky camera in the middle of
the main stand unlike the 24+ uber HD cameras of today, that can
have zoomed right in slo mo replays onto social media within
seconds. No social media... Managers didn't spend their entire
post match interview blaming the ref for a blade of grass being
0.000001mm longer than the one next to it, WWI, WWII and
probably WWIII and anything else that the ref is guilty of. A
global audience of millions and a media who join the managers in
blaming refs for all and sundry, whilst ignoring the bad
behaviour and unsportmenlike conduct of players. Top flight
games have literally millions riding on the result. I'd wager
they were no more accurate in decision making than their
counterparts of today but back then no-one took any notice, ref
error was no different to player error, a quick shrug and it was
forgotten, unlike these days where you still hear how terrible x
ref is because they made a poor game changing decision 10 years
ago and football still hasn't moved on from it!
[/quote]
I'm sorry but I am not 100% sure if you think it was better then
or better now ;) ;)
#Post#: 55975--------------------------------------------------
Re: Quantity of Match Officials at the World Cup
DIR By: bmb
Date: November 30, 2022, 3:35 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Leggy link ---
>
> [quote author=bmb link=topic=4243.msg55943#msg55943
date=1669831758]
> [quote author=Whistleblower link=topic=4243.msg55929#msg55929
date=1669826566]
> How Jack Taylor, Joe Worrall, George Courtney et al managed to
referee so efficiently and well despite not having this as huge
cadre of support officials is nothing short of a miracle.
Perhaps it was something to do with their abundant talent.
>
--- End Quote ---
And the fact players did not spend 90 mins using any and every
form of the dark arts to try and con them. You can't compare
then & now, the game itself is so different. Back then many
players would have a cigarette at half time, some probably
accompanied by a pint. These days players, and the top top
referees, are super fit athletes, not even an ounce of fat on
them. There's a whole department dedicated to getting the right
nutrition. The game is played at probably double the speed and
is much more technical. Red card then was only given if multiple
bones were broken or the fire brigade had to be called out to
rescue said player on the wrong end of the tackle from the top
of the floodlights. The LOTG were simple and understandable,
these days you need a degree in contortionism to understand the
handball law and degrees in maths and science to understand
offside!! It was a lot more simpler, players got on and played,
referees got on and refereed. 1 shaky camera in the middle of
the main stand unlike the 24+ uber HD cameras of today, that can
have zoomed right in slo mo replays onto social media within
seconds. No social media... Managers didn't spend their entire
post match interview blaming the ref for a blade of grass being
0.000001mm longer than the one next to it, WWI, WWII and
probably WWIII and anything else that the ref is guilty of. A
global audience of millions and a media who join the managers in
blaming refs for all and sundry, whilst ignoring the bad
behaviour and unsportmenlike conduct of players. Top flight
games have literally millions riding on the result. I'd wager
they were no more accurate in decision making than their
counterparts of today but back then no-one took any notice, ref
error was no different to player error, a quick shrug and it was
forgotten, unlike these days where you still hear how terrible x
ref is because they made a poor game changing decision 10 years
ago and football still hasn't moved on from it!
[/quote]
I'm sorry but I am not 100% sure if you think it was better then
or better now ;) ;)
[/quote]
I'd love to see the higher skilled game & athleticism of today
played without the dark arts and with the same levels of respect
between player/coaches/referees of yesterday. Not sure I will
ever get my wish!
#Post#: 56265--------------------------------------------------
Re: Quantity of Match Officials at the World Cup
DIR By: Affy_Moose
Date: December 5, 2022, 12:56 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
Whilst VAR hasn’t been without its confusion (we can think of a
couple of penalty/non-penalty calls), it has been remarkably
fast, efficient and non-obtrusive.
That will be immediately compared in Scotland, England, and the
other VAR leagues in late December, with less than favourable
reviews.
Of course, it will be ignored/forgotten that VAR in the WC has
access to even more cameras, whilst having 4 x dedicated VAR
officials, and operated by the very best referees in the world
in all positions. It will also absolutely be forgotten that the
teams play in a far different manner, that manifestly requires
fewer reviews.
VAR (by the sheer virtue of its existence) was always going to
create the situation, but it is also remarkable how few red
cards we’ve had in this World Cup. I believe it remains just
the one for Wales, which was effectively unavoidable given the
nature of the challenge, and the ‘deliberate’ second caution for
Cameroon. There will be some expectation for that to continue
back into the domestic game, but all the nuance will be
immediately forgotten, laughably by the same pundits and
commentators covering this competition.
Others will note the difference and then bemoan why we can’t do
the same thing in England/Scotland/Germany/other. Again,
they’ll fail to address the underlying problem which is the
cost, and levels of competition (i.e. it doesn’t matter how
competitive your sport or occupation is, there will always be an
upper echelon of abilities, which always makes the rest
relatively less able).
That noted, the only method available to seriously improve the
level of any sport or occupation substantially is to increase
the numbers at the bottom of the pyramid. That requires i) far
more money at the grassroots level of the game, and ii) a
massive change in mentality and culture of all involved in
football.
Make it more competitive, and increase retention, and the
entirety of the game will improve.
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