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#Post#: 53834--------------------------------------------------
Quality of referees
DIR By: lincs22
Date: October 17, 2022, 2:03 am
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All we get from spectators, players and team officials at all
levels, is that the referees aren't good enough for them...
But given the lack of numbers becoming referees and joining
adult football, how do we improve? We as referees, know that to
replace those at the top of the profession is a 3-5 years
turnaround.
But can money turn this around? Will the FA invest significant
more money in referee development?
Given Gareth Southgate is reported to be on a £4M bonus for
winning the world cup, could this be available to the CFA for
their development programs? But this would be only c £100K per
CFA
#Post#: 53836--------------------------------------------------
Re: Quality of referees
DIR By: Failed Ref
Date: October 17, 2022, 2:48 am
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I care little for football these days preferring rugby, but
comparisons can be made. There is a shortage of rugby referees
leading to the cancellation of fixtures and indeed leagues have
been abandoned. There are many reasons and the post covid
affects cannot be ignored but the shortage is driving people
from the game, removing income passing through the club houses
threatening the very foundations of community rugby.
Professional rugby is struggling but frankly the whole game
needs a full, in-depth review.
Referees have a number of problems and indeed at higher level
there is a dire shortage of decent ARs. Firstly, why should a
referee give up a large chunk of his Saturday for little if any
financial reward? Secondly, are referees being asked to travel
too far to fixtures making their day too long? Are the financial
rewards / incentives sufficient? Rugby referees spend a lot of
time during the week preparing and maintaining fitness and skill
levels and good football referees need to do so also. What are
the other rewards that a referee can get such as respect and
acknowledgment by the players, coaches and spectators for their
efforts? Is there a clear and fair promotion path, incentives to
improve? Are assessors and referee coaches available in
sufficient quantities and are they good enough to help and
develop new officials? Have we removed the discrimination that I
have personally seen in rugby promotion - sexism, racism and
"fat shaming", the latter being an obsession with physical
appearance than and ability to do the job at the level expected
of them? I am sure FAs will say we have procedures and
powerpoint presentations to prove that we do, but where is the
evidence?
It often boils down to money but that has to be spent wisely and
must filter down to the lower levels, grass root rugby so to
speak. But often the problems are beyond anyone's control until
such time society learns to respect other people.
#Post#: 53838--------------------------------------------------
Re: Quality of referees
DIR By: ajb95
Date: October 17, 2022, 3:16 am
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Money I think is one thing, but at grassroots football abuse is
a far more concerning point. The absolutely disgraceful
behaviour of coaches and parents (mainly) is causing the leave
of thousands of referees each year.
I run a local mini soccer league and our league have made giant
strides to make the league as fun as possible. Of course that
competitive spirit will always be there but clamping down on
reckless behaviour before it escalates is important. We had our
local County FA visit last week and they said the number of
reported incidents this season is already higher than last year
until Christmas!
Only last week I heard about a referee abandoning an U12’s game
but more disgustingly, a referee was assaulted n an U7s game!!
Most of this is abuse against a minor. If you saw Assaults
outside a pub in town you’d be done for GBH, yet it seems to be
acceptable at grassroots football.
Until the FA (and local county fa’s) get some balls and start
banning people, clubs, and leagues, until these abusers start
seeing prison sentences, nothing will ever change. FA research
shows 3/4 of new qualified referees leave after 12 months. That
is unsustainable.
Now in terms of the professional games and in some ways this
filters down to the semi-pro steps as well, there has never been
so much development. We have over 50 refs who are full time,
fitness is better, analysis is better, every county fa runs CORE
programmes to progress those talented reds through the system.
So why are we seeing too few “amazing” referees come through?
One reason might be the dreadful behaviour in the professional
game: hounding of referees, the endless diving and rolling
around, the awful dissent show by players, and managers on the
bench, the constant whinging about every decision, there
continued criticism post match, the minute scrutiny by clueless
pundits, and social media. What do the football administrators
do? Nothing. So nothing will change.
Countries with far less resources, with far less quality, and
with far fewer professional leagues, provide a far better pool
of referees. But until the game is cleaned up from the PL right
down to Sunday morning pub teams, there will be fewer and fewer
referees.
#Post#: 53844--------------------------------------------------
Re: Quality of referees
DIR By: Failed Ref
Date: October 17, 2022, 4:05 am
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I left after a year many years ago. I was simply rubbish and the
abuse I got was deserved! Not everyone is naturally able to
handle games and the dropout rate maybe a realisation that it is
not worth the candle. Of note, the RFU has reported an increase
in referee abuse this season. Maybe it is because we are more
sensitive and more easily offended but it is interesting that
one lovely club often gets increased numbers of spectators when
the local football team is not playing due to the international
football break. It was at this game there was an incident of
referee abuse. Co-incidence or what? Never before has the club
had issues like this. One individual I would add.
The professional game has a lot to answer for and I would love
local authorities to threaten to close a ground if abusive
behaviour continues. It won't as that will upset the locals on
who you rely on politically, but it might focus a few minds!
#Post#: 53845--------------------------------------------------
Re: Quality of referees
DIR By: Leggy
Date: October 17, 2022, 4:14 am
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If we want to turn the tide then this must start at the top.
The FA must take a deep breath of courage and:-
~ Tell players that feigning injury to get an opponent into
trouble will not be tolerated. Video evidence will be used and
every instance will result in a three-match ban (doubled for
subsequent offences).
~ Tell players that hounding referees and assistant referees
will not be tolerated and will be dealt with according to Law as
either dissent of OFFINABUS.
~ Tell club officials that any irresponsible, abusive or
offensive behaviour has a zero tolerance level and will result
in three-match stadium bans (doubled for subsequent offences).
~ Tell referees to implement the above consistently and without
fear or favour; adding that referees who do this will be
supported and those that do not will be held to account.
~ Tell the other PGMOL "stakeholders" that the above is 100%
necessary for the good of games in the EPL / EFL and of the
wider game in this country.
~ Remain steadfast when the inevitable whining starts to take
place after 3/4/5 weeks with player and club officials serving
suspensions and refuse to countenance reverting to the
abominable approach of "managing the game" that has got us into
this mess in the first place.
Compared with other sports, football at the highest level has
become a huge embarrassment in the way players and club
officials are allowed to treat match officials. It has to
change - now.
Once the above has bedded in and behaviour has changed at the
top level, the benefits will slowly start to be seen at
grass-roots level. It will take time for this to happen, but it
can only happen when there is a fundamental change at the top.
I am happy to be contradicted by those nearer the "coal-face"
than me, and accept that it is a pretty drastic manifesto, but
is it wrong?
#Post#: 53848--------------------------------------------------
Re: Quality of referees
DIR By: Whistleblower
Date: October 17, 2022, 4:49 am
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--- Quote from: Leggy link ---
>
> If we want to turn the tide then this must start at the top.
The FA must take a deep breath or courage and:-
> ~ Tell players that feigning injury to get an opponent into
trouble will not be tolerated. Video evidence will be used and
every instance will result in a three-match ban (doubled for
subsequent offences).
> ~ Tell players that hounding referees and assistant referees
will not be tolerated and will be dealt with according to Law as
either dissent of OFFINABUS.
> ~ Tell club officials that any irresponsible, abusive or
offensive behaviour has a zero tolerance level and will result
in three-match stadium bans (doubled for subsequent offences).
> ~ Tell referees to implement the above consistently and
without fear or favour; adding that referees who do this will be
supported and those that do not will be held to account.
> ~ Tell the other PGMOL "stakeholders" that the above is 100%
necessary for the good of games in the EPL / EFL and of the
wider game in this country.
> ~ Remain steadfast when the inevitable whining starts to take
place after 3/4/5 weeks with player and club officials serving
suspensions and refuse to countenance reverting to the
abominable approach of "managing the game" that has got us into
this mess in the first place.
>
> Compared with other sports, football at the highest level has
become a huge embarrassment in the way players and club
officials are allowed to treat match officials. It has to
change - now.
>
> Once the above has bedded in and behaviour has changed at the
top level, the benefits will slowly start to be seen at
grass-roots level. It will take time for this to happen, but it
can only happen when there is a fundamental change at the top.
>
> I am happy to be contradicted by those nearer the "coal-face"
than me, and accept that it is a pretty drastic manifesto, but
is it wrong?
>
--- End Quote ---
A really insightful post and I agree with much of the
prescription. However, senior football is, it seems to me, being
transformed from pure sport to a form of entertainment and so a
referee is not called upon to be an arbiter but a master of
ceremonies. The Laws are therefore massaged in a pursuit of the
chief objective which is to provide a financially profitable
spectacle. Football has been an important part of my life since
I was a young lad but now I find my disinterest in much of it
greater than I have ever known in my life, precisely because of
this reason.
#Post#: 53850--------------------------------------------------
Re: Quality of referees
DIR By: Toprefm
Date: October 17, 2022, 5:48 am
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As the Chair of a very large Junior League we find this a
problem. We try to offer our support to any referees and try to
take the clubs to task. But there's very little we can do as a
League without the support of the Local CGA and the FA.
One instance that springs to mind is that of a manager pouring
water over a referee. We banned said manager for enough time
until his team would be out of the League. Que intervention from
CFA who said we could not do that and manager allowed to
continue. Voting teams out needs a 2/3 majority and tbh most of
the clubs are insular and don't see the bigger picture. All they
see is kids not being able to play football. We had to resort to
withdrawing fixtures, which we probably not allowed to do but we
have to try. the most annoying thing is parents abusing U18
referees and if someone spoke to their kids like that they'd
kick off.
The dissent sin bin seems to have cut a lot of player issues
down, and as a referee I welcome this. But the problems have to
be addressed in my opinion from the top down. So start
sinbinning players at PL & EFL for any sort of dissent and for a
few weeks it'll be carnage but then they'll learn. If not then
start docking points.
No simple answers but it can't be just grassroots tackling it.
it must start with the professional game.
I still remember in a meeting when I operated at semi
professional level why language was tolerated in the PL & EFL
and the response was it's a workplace!!! Well I'm sure most
workplaces wouldn't tolerate their managers being treated as our
referees are.
#Post#: 53853--------------------------------------------------
Re: Quality of referees
DIR By: Ashington46
Date: October 17, 2022, 6:50 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Toprefm link ---
>
> As the Chair of a very large Junior League we find this a
problem. We try to offer our support to any referees and try to
take the clubs to task. But there's very little we can do as a
League without the support of the Local CGA and the FA.
>
> One instance that springs to mind is that of a manager
pouring water over a referee. We banned said manager for enough
time until his team would be out of the League. Que intervention
from CFA who said we could not do that and manager allowed to
continue. Voting teams out needs a 2/3 majority and tbh most of
the clubs are insular and don't see the bigger picture. All they
see is kids not being able to play football. We had to resort to
withdrawing fixtures, which we probably not allowed to do but we
have to try. the most annoying thing is parents abusing U18
referees and if someone spoke to their kids like that they'd
kick off.
>
> The dissent sin bin seems to have cut a lot of player issues
down, and as a referee I welcome this. But the problems have to
be addressed in my opinion from the top down. So start
sinbinning players at PL & EFL for any sort of dissent and for a
few weeks it'll be carnage but then they'll learn. If not then
start docking points.
>
> No simple answers but it can't be just grassroots tackling it.
it must start with the professional game.
>
> I still remember in a meeting when I operated at semi
professional level why language was tolerated in the PL & EFL
and the response was it's a workplace!!! Well I'm sure most
workplaces wouldn't tolerate their managers being treated as our
referees are.
>
--- End Quote ---
Oh yes, the old 'industrial langauge' argument that the FA used
when, as a league secretary quite a number of years ago, I
queried the directive that officials had to clamp down on
swearing in grassroots football. This was probably around 2005
when I heard Trevor Brooking on the radio clearly stating that
it would be impossible to clamp down at the top level because it
was their workplace. He stated that the problem had to be
sorted at grassroots level and this would then improve the
professional game. Officials were instructed to give a red card
for anyone swearing on the field and for a short time it was
mayhem in quite a number of leagues in the north east.
During this time, there was no improvement at all in the
professional game and I clearly remember Wayne Rooney coming out
with a real mouthful at a referee which could be seen by all
watching and several clubs in my league queried why nothing had
been done when they had players being fined and suspended for
swearing at a team mate! I did not have, and still do not have,
any answers.
#Post#: 53936--------------------------------------------------
Re: Quality of referees
DIR By: Failed Ref
Date: October 19, 2022, 7:49 am
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I seem to recall that a national TV broadcaster when showing
highlights of old matches pixilates the mouths of players where
it is obvious foul language is being used. This I imagine, is so
it does not cause offence and on a more general note many
broadcasters publish a warning about strong language. People are
offended by bad language and therefore why should they have to
put up with it either in lower leagues or indeed professional
games? As for workplace language, I have never worked in a place
where foul language was acceptable, and it was not allowed in my
own business either. When it was used appropriate action was
taken. Football meanwhile does its own thing....
#Post#: 54034--------------------------------------------------
Re: Quality of referees
DIR By: Arbitre anglais
Date: October 21, 2022, 1:28 pm
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A really interesting thread and lots of the above is spot on.
The FA is the one ultimately to blame. A few TShirts / posters /
‘respect’ handshakes / adverts are just transparent token
gestures. Ultimately money and, most of all league points, count
at the top level.
No new laws are needed; the existing ones simply need enforcing!
If PL refs simply cautioned every single player, without
exception, who runs at them / surrounds them / gets in their
face after a decision / follows them to the VAR screen to have
their say, players would soon stop doing it, as it would be in
their interest to do so and avoid suspensions. Football would
ultimately benefit - less childish arguing with the ref and more
football. At the moment, it’s in their interest not to avoid it
- if they feel they can influence decisions, they’ll obviously
carry on. That’s why managers coach to ‘get it the ref’s ear’
for fear of missing out of the other team are doing it.
The benches are a mess - for all the specific offences
highlighted when cards for coaches were introduced recently,
they’re very rarely enforced other than when something really
flares up.
If the FA want to actually stop something, they could do it.
Take the annoying intimidation of a penalty taker (particularly
at a key point, eg. a last minute winner), even when the
decision is obviously correct. Players are coached to surround,
jostle, argue, scuff the penalty spot, refuse to leave the area
- all in an effort to unsportingly delay/ put off the kicker.
Just enforce the law on delaying restart / dissent / unsporting
behaviour - PK given, all defenders must leave the penalty area
straight away or face mandatory sanction.
Referees at pro /semi pro level know that ‘managing the game’ is
key. This is just another name for ignoring things to save club
marks or seeming ‘controversial’. They are coached to turn a
blind eye to offences - why correctly caution 3 for dissent when
you can ‘avoid’ it. You’ve only got so many matches in the
marking season to earn marks for promotion, why stand out by
actually doing the correct thing?
At local level, FA keep going on about the sin bin as if it’s
some magic solution. Dissent is just as bad, but just leads to a
sin bin instead; it hasn’t solved it.
The ‘workplace’ argument is also widespread at the FA / referee
coaching and completely ridiculous. Most professions/workplaces
have codes of conduct, and if you’re a professional being paid
millions, you can learn to control yourself like others have to.
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