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#Post#: 53378--------------------------------------------------
Another obscure question of law...
DIR By: Rosstheref
Date: October 6, 2022, 6:47 am
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A manager is also listed as a substitute on the official team
sheet provided to the match officials prior to the game.
In the 85th minute of the game, with his team winning 2-1, the
ball goes out of play infront of him. He deliberately holds onto
the ball delaying the restart of play for the opposition.
In this scenario, is the manager sent off (acting as a team
official), or cautioned (acting as a substitute)???
#Post#: 53379--------------------------------------------------
Re: Another obscure question of law...
DIR By: ARF
Date: October 6, 2022, 6:53 am
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--- Quote from: Rosstheref link ---
>
> A manager is also listed as a substitute on the official team
sheet provided to the match officials prior to the game.
>
> In the 85th minute of the game, with his team winning 2-1, the
ball goes out of play infront of him. He deliberately holds onto
the ball delaying the restart of play for the opposition.
>
> In this scenario, is the manager sent off (acting as a team
official), or cautioned (acting as a substitute)???
>
--- End Quote ---
For simultaneous offences you punish the more serious offence,
so red card.
#Post#: 53380--------------------------------------------------
Re: Another obscure question of law...
DIR By: jacksamuel21
Date: October 6, 2022, 7:28 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: ARF link ---
>
> [quote author=Rosstheref link=topic=4033.msg53378#msg53378
date=1665056876]
> A manager is also listed as a substitute on the official team
sheet provided to the match officials prior to the game.
>
> In the 85th minute of the game, with his team winning 2-1, the
ball goes out of play infront of him. He deliberately holds onto
the ball delaying the restart of play for the opposition.
>
> In this scenario, is the manager sent off (acting as a team
official), or cautioned (acting as a substitute)???
>
--- End Quote ---
For simultaneous offences you punish the more serious offence,
so red card.
[/quote]
So he could come on as a sub?
#Post#: 53389--------------------------------------------------
Re: Another obscure question of law...
DIR By: ARF
Date: October 6, 2022, 5:41 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: jacksamuel21 link ---
>
> [quote author=ARF link=topic=4033.msg53379#msg53379
date=1665057234]
> [quote author=Rosstheref link=topic=4033.msg53378#msg53378
date=1665056876]
> A manager is also listed as a substitute on the official team
sheet provided to the match officials prior to the game.
>
> In the 85th minute of the game, with his team winning 2-1, the
ball goes out of play infront of him. He deliberately holds onto
the ball delaying the restart of play for the opposition.
>
> In this scenario, is the manager sent off (acting as a team
official), or cautioned (acting as a substitute)???
>
--- End Quote ---
For simultaneous offences you punish the more serious offence,
so red card.
[/quote]
So he could come on as a sub?
[/quote]
Well on the league I referee, it's in the league rules that any
technical area occupant who is dismissed cannot view the
remainder of the game, so definitely not. Even if it wasn't,
from a practical point of view I still wouldn't allow a team
official to come on as a sub if I've shown them a red card.
Don't complicate matters - everyone understands a red card means
bye bye!
#Post#: 53390--------------------------------------------------
Re: Another obscure question of law...
DIR By: rustyref
Date: October 6, 2022, 5:50 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
Before cards for coaches came in it used to be a lot more
complicated. I raised this with the FA, through my supply
league, as it just wasn't clear.
Example case, player manager gets sent from the touchline for
irresponsible behaviour. He's in the stands for that, but can
he then bring himself on as a sub? The answer back then was it
he has committed an offence that a player would get a red card
for he cannot take any part in the game, if he has committed an
offence that a player would get a caution for he can. So even
if you'd booted a manager to the stand for generally just being
an @rse, he could then come on as a sub.
The fact that cards are now shown to managers changes that
completely.
#Post#: 53405--------------------------------------------------
Re: Another obscure question of law...
DIR By: SmallChild
Date: October 7, 2022, 3:36 pm
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Law defines team officials as
--- Quote ---
> "Any non-player listed on the official team list e.g. coach,
physiotherapist, doctor (see Technical staff)"
>
--- End Quote ---
and I've asked this question to IFAB before and they clarified
that this means a person can either be a player or a non-player,
not both.
So technically if a manager is a named player or substitute they
cannot be listed as a team official as they're not a non-player
and so will be treated as a player for whatever offences they
may commit.
So the manager would be cautioned in the first example as a
player/substitute can only be cautioned for delaying the restart
of play.
#Post#: 53407--------------------------------------------------
Re: Another obscure question of law...
DIR By: ARF
Date: October 8, 2022, 2:14 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: SmallChild link ---
>
> Law defines team officials as [quote]"Any non-player listed on
the official team list e.g. coach, physiotherapist, doctor (see
Technical staff)"
>
--- End Quote ---
and I've asked this question to IFAB before and they clarified
that this means a person can either be a player or a non-player,
not both.
So technically if a manager is a named player or substitute they
cannot be listed as a team official as they're not a non-player
and so will be treated as a player for whatever offences they
may commit.
So the manager would be cautioned in the first example as a
player/substitute can only be cautioned for delaying the restart
of play.
[/quote]
Interesting. Of course, if they cannot be named as a team
official, then you wouldn't allow them to stand in the technical
area coaching, and you probably avoid the entire situation!
#Post#: 53480--------------------------------------------------
Re: Another obscure question of law...
DIR By: SmallChild
Date: October 9, 2022, 2:17 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: ARF link ---
>
> [quote author=SmallChild link=topic=4033.msg53405#msg53405
date=1665174960]
> Law defines team officials as [quote]"Any non-player listed on
the official team list e.g. coach, physiotherapist, doctor (see
Technical staff)"
>
--- End Quote ---
and I've asked this question to IFAB before and they clarified
that this means a person can either be a player or a non-player,
not both.
So technically if a manager is a named player or substitute they
cannot be listed as a team official as they're not a non-player
and so will be treated as a player for whatever offences they
may commit.
So the manager would be cautioned in the first example as a
player/substitute can only be cautioned for delaying the restart
of play.
[/quote]
Interesting. Of course, if they cannot be named as a team
official, then you wouldn't allow them to stand in the technical
area coaching, and you probably avoid the entire situation!
[/quote]
Weirdly law only says: only one person at a time is authorised
to convey tactical instructions from the technical area. Doesn't
say that they must be a team official, just an authorised
occupant of the TA, which does include players. Unless the
competition has rules on who can do what then there is 0
prohibition on a player coaching, making it a potentially very
interesting situation.
#Post#: 53538--------------------------------------------------
Re: Another obscure question of law...
DIR By: Affy_Moose
Date: October 10, 2022, 7:08 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: SmallChild link ---
>
> [quote author=ARF link=topic=4033.msg53407#msg53407
date=1665213279]
> [quote author=SmallChild link=topic=4033.msg53405#msg53405
date=1665174960]
> Law defines team officials as [quote]"Any non-player listed on
the official team list e.g. coach, physiotherapist, doctor (see
Technical staff)"
>
--- End Quote ---
and I've asked this question to IFAB before and they clarified
that this means a person can either be a player or a non-player,
not both.
So technically if a manager is a named player or substitute they
cannot be listed as a team official as they're not a non-player
and so will be treated as a player for whatever offences they
may commit.
So the manager would be cautioned in the first example as a
player/substitute can only be cautioned for delaying the restart
of play.
[/quote]
Interesting. Of course, if they cannot be named as a team
official, then you wouldn't allow them to stand in the technical
area coaching, and you probably avoid the entire situation!
[/quote]
Weirdly law only says: only one person at a time is authorised
to convey tactical instructions from the technical area. Doesn't
say that they must be a team official, just an authorised
occupant of the TA, which does include players. Unless the
competition has rules on who can do what then there is 0
prohibition on a player coaching, making it a potentially very
interesting situation.
[/quote]
Correct. "Only one out coaching" is the only instruction
required - ARs and 4th Officials aren't in the habit of checking
team lines for those purposes, and they shouldn't be.
From my understanding, a player-manager has to be treated as a
player first. The Law is insufficiently quiet in this regard,
but as it noted above, you cannot let the absurd position exist
where an individual is 'sent off' as a manager, but returns as a
player.
I would be supportive of a clarification meaning that in such
instances, the 'player' must be held to the same account as
he/she would be as a manager, but without it I can't see how you
could do such a thing.
That noted, when 'sending off' a physio, the guidelines are
usually to allow the physio to remain in the technical area, but
for the purposes of match administration and reporting, they
would be reported as sent off to the league/FA.
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