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#Post#: 52678--------------------------------------------------
Re: Seen him - tick!
DIR By: Whistleblower
Date: September 12, 2022, 10:48 am
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--- Quote from: Acme Thunderer link ---
>
> Thank you JT. Brian James' claim to fame came as the linesman
involved in the infamous Keegan v Bremner punch-up during the
Charity Shield Final of 1974. Referee was Bob Matthewson and
Brian is the tall linesman taking notes beside him. Brian also
appeared on MOTD as the referee at Nottingham Forest but I don't
recall any other details. He became a supplementary referee
after the 1974 Charity Shield Final and served a further two
seasons as a full FL ref before coming off the list. And based
on my later experience of him, it is not difficult to understand
why his career at the top table was so brief!
>
--- End Quote ---
Do I understand then that your unpleasant encounter with him
happened after he had come off the Football League ? Perhaps a
reason, though certainly not an excuse, for his behaviour is
that he was a somewhat bitter at his own treatment.
Upton records him becoming a Supplementary Referee in 1974 at a
relatively old age ( so quite reasonable for him to be
refereeing at Chester in November 1974, though a long way from
home ) and then on the Full List 1975 -1977 leaving at the age
of 44 or 45
#Post#: 52699--------------------------------------------------
Re: Seen him - tick!
DIR By: RefObserver
Date: September 13, 2022, 4:53 am
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Found this earlier regards Mr James.....
HTML https://www.hattersheritage.co.uk/sites/default/files/Match%20Report_1_435.pdf
#Post#: 52701--------------------------------------------------
Re: Seen him - tick!
DIR By: Acme Thunderer
Date: September 13, 2022, 5:03 am
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Yes, that looks like the Bryan ('y' rather than 'i') James that
I experienced!
#Post#: 52703--------------------------------------------------
Re: Seen him - tick!
DIR By: Whistleblower
Date: September 13, 2022, 5:13 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: RefObserver link ---
>
> Found this earlier regards Mr James.....
>
>
HTML https://www.hattersheritage.co.uk/sites/default/files/Match%20Report_1_435.pdf
>
--- End Quote ---
Thank you for posting this RefObserver, not particularly to read
about referee Mr James but about David Peach. I knew David
Peach's late parents very well, at one stage living quite close
to them and they were a delightful couple full of fun and
kindness.
#Post#: 52707--------------------------------------------------
Re: Seen him - tick!
DIR By: Acme Thunderer
Date: September 13, 2022, 5:23 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Acme Thunderer link ---
>
> In the absence of any football, I have been taking a look
through my well-thumbed copy of Upton's. Looking at 1946-79 to
begin with, I reckon I saw live about 100 FL referees, mostly at
Selhurst Park, these being detailed below. I can name at least
one relevant match for most of the referees listed. Can anyone
match this or care to comment, other than to confirm that I must
lead a very sad life?! I'll post the later period soon.
>
> N Ashley, K Baker, M Baker, P Baldwin, V Batty, D Biddle, W
Bombroff, D Brady, J Bray, L Burden, K Burns, V Callow, W
Castle, N Burtenshaw, P Bye, L Callaghan, W Clements, D Corbett,
G Courtney, R Crabb, K Dagnall, R Darlington, H Davey, T Dawes,
J Finney, G Flint, M Fussey, A Glasson, W Gow, A Gunn, K
Hackett, B Hill, G Hill, J Homewood, K Howley, E Hughes, J
Hunting, D Hutchinson, V James, E Jennings, R Johnson, E Jolly,
G Jones, I Jones, M Kerkof, G Kew, R Kirkpatrick, R Lee, A Lees,
D Lloyd, M Lowe, D Lyden, B Martin, J Martin, C Maskell, R
Matthewson, N Midgley, T Mills, A Morrissey, G Napthine, H New,
C Newsome, C Nicholls, F Nicholson, D Nippard, R Paine, P
Partridge, E Read, P Reeves, T Reynolds, A Robinson, G Roper, K
Salmon, M Scott, A Seville, J Sewell, L Shapter, M Sinclair, D
Smith, T Spencer, R Spittle, B Stevens, K Styles, J Taylor, M
Taylor, J Thacker, C Thomas, R Tinkler, R Toseland, D Turner, K
Walker, E Wallace, P Walters, A Weller, C White, H Williams, J
Worrall, K Wynn, J Yates.
>
--- End Quote ---
A mull through these early refs:
Most frequent visitors to Selhurst Park - Norman Burtenshaw,
Harry New, Ray Tinkler
Best - Joe Worrall, Newcastle v Nottingham Forest in the FA Cup,
head and shoulders over the rest, Jack Taylor - Palace v
Liverpool, plus Jim Finney and Ken Dagnall
Worst - Peter Bye, consecutive matches at Selhurst - FA Youth
Cup and League v Huddersfield. Jack Taylor (yes JT), Palace v
Rochdale in the League Cup, Bill Bombroff, Palace v Arsenal when
he was completely out of his depth.
Hardest - Ricky Nicholson, Palace v West Ham, in which six
players were 'booked' including Geoff Hurst for time-wasting
Lenient - Leo Callaghan, Millwall v Palace in the 'Battle of the
Den', plus Geoff Roper
Bizarre - Eddie Hughes and the 'clock' incident at SP, Bill
Castle and the 'Queen in brawl at the Palace' incident, Kevin
Howley booking 10 Mansfield players at the end of a FA cup tie
at SP
Funniest - Roger Kirkpatrick and (a distant second) Maurice
Fussey.
#Post#: 52709--------------------------------------------------
Re: Seen him - tick!
DIR By: Whistleblower
Date: September 13, 2022, 5:43 am
---------------------------------------------------------
My experience is thus :-
Best Joe Worrall ( of course ) I remember one
match at QPR, a tricky one with lots of antagonism, and he
handled it superbly showing an
authority which wasn't in the least bit
overbearing just utterly in control.
Worst Alan Turvey. A match at Highbury where he was
so far out of his depth one felt sorry for him. Quite the worst
performance I have ever seen
until Alan Young at Portman Road a little
while back.
Most Lenient John Gow. This will surprise some people because
he had a reputation of being a stickler but at Portman Road on
one occasion, I have never
seen so much rough and foul play not
receive appropriate sanction.
Most strict Malcolm Sinclair. The watch strap king who
kept just about the tightest reign on every match he refereed
and allowed players to get away
with precisely nothing.
Funniest John Kirkby. Almost a one man cabaret act
inter-reacting with the crowd and a fount of good humour
Bizarre Roger Pawley. He refereed perfectly well but
just didn't look like a senior referee but more like a man going
for a stroll across a football
pitch.
#Post#: 52719--------------------------------------------------
Re: Seen him - tick!
DIR By: TVOS
Date: September 13, 2022, 6:39 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Acme Thunderer link ---
>
> [quote author=Acme Thunderer link=topic=3972.msg52598#msg52598
date=1662817615]
> In the absence of any football, I have been taking a look
through my well-thumbed copy of Upton's. Looking at 1946-79 to
begin with, I reckon I saw live about 100 FL referees, mostly at
Selhurst Park, these being detailed below. I can name at least
one relevant match for most of the referees listed. Can anyone
match this or care to comment, other than to confirm that I must
lead a very sad life?! I'll post the later period soon.
>
> N Ashley, K Baker, M Baker, P Baldwin, V Batty, D Biddle, W
Bombroff, D Brady, J Bray, L Burden, K Burns, V Callow, W
Castle, N Burtenshaw, P Bye, L Callaghan, W Clements, D Corbett,
G Courtney, R Crabb, K Dagnall, R Darlington, H Davey, T Dawes,
J Finney, G Flint, M Fussey, A Glasson, W Gow, A Gunn, K
Hackett, B Hill, G Hill, J Homewood, K Howley, E Hughes, J
Hunting, D Hutchinson, V James, E Jennings, R Johnson, E Jolly,
G Jones, I Jones, M Kerkof, G Kew, R Kirkpatrick, R Lee, A Lees,
D Lloyd, M Lowe, D Lyden, B Martin, J Martin, C Maskell, R
Matthewson, N Midgley, T Mills, A Morrissey, G Napthine, H New,
C Newsome, C Nicholls, F Nicholson, D Nippard, R Paine, P
Partridge, E Read, P Reeves, T Reynolds, A Robinson, G Roper, K
Salmon, M Scott, A Seville, J Sewell, L Shapter, M Sinclair, D
Smith, T Spencer, R Spittle, B Stevens, K Styles, J Taylor, M
Taylor, J Thacker, C Thomas, R Tinkler, R Toseland, D Turner, K
Walker, E Wallace, P Walters, A Weller, C White, H Williams, J
Worrall, K Wynn, J Yates.
>
--- End Quote ---
A mull through these early refs:
Most frequent visitors to Selhurst Park - Norman Burtenshaw,
Harry New, Ray Tinkler
Best - Joe Worrall, Newcastle v Nottingham Forest in the FA Cup,
head and shoulders over the rest, Jack Taylor - Palace v
Liverpool, plus Jim Finney and Ken Dagnall
Worst - Peter Bye, consecutive matches at Selhurst - FA Youth
Cup and League v Huddersfield. Jack Taylor (yes JT), Palace v
Rochdale in the League Cup, Bill Bombroff, Palace v Arsenal when
he was completely out of his depth.
Hardest - Ricky Nicholson, Palace v West Ham, in which six
players were 'booked' including Geoff Hurst for time-wasting
Lenient - Leo Callaghan, Millwall v Palace in the 'Battle of the
Den', plus Geoff Roper
Bizarre - Eddie Hughes and the 'clock' incident at SP, Bill
Castle and the 'Queen in brawl at the Palace' incident, Kevin
Howley booking 10 Mansfield players at the end of a FA cup tie
at SP
Funniest - Roger Kirkpatrick and (a distant second) Maurice
Fussey.
[/quote]
Before my time, but what did Jack Taylor do so wrong in the fine
3-3 draw we achieved at Selhurst Park in September 1971?
#Post#: 52730--------------------------------------------------
Re: Seen him - tick!
DIR By: Acme Thunderer
Date: September 13, 2022, 9:51 am
---------------------------------------------------------
'Bizarre - Roger Pawley. He refereed perfectly well but just
didn't look like a senior referee but more like a man going for
a stroll across a football pitch'.
I think you may have answered a question TVOS. I remember seeing
some TV highlights of a game at Crewe in the early 1990s, long
before I moved there and appointments were available online. The
chap was fairly small and 'well-built', with a receding
hairline, and he seemed to waddle round the pitch rather than
run. I often wondered whether it might be Roger Pawley, timing
and geography-wise being right. The chap disappeared off the
scene later in the 1990s which again accords with Roger. Could
it have been him or does someone else fit the bill?
#Post#: 52731--------------------------------------------------
Re: Seen him - tick!
DIR By: Whistleblower
Date: September 13, 2022, 10:05 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Acme Thunderer link ---
>
> 'Bizarre - Roger Pawley. He refereed perfectly well but just
didn't look like a senior referee but more like a man going for
a stroll across a football pitch'.
>
> I think you may have answered a question TVOS. I remember
seeing some TV highlights of a game at Crewe in the early 1990s,
long before I moved there and appointments were available
online. The chap was fairly small and 'well-built', with a
receding hairline, and he seemed to waddle round the pitch
rather than run. I often wondered whether it might be Roger
Pawley, timing and geography-wise being right. The chap
disappeared off the scene later in the 1990s which again accords
with Roger. Could it have been him or does someone else fit the
bill?
>
--- End Quote ---
I cannot let TVOS take the blame for my rather unflattering
description of Roger Pawley, it was your correspondent
Whistleblower !
The timings are right. Upton lists Pawley as being on the
Football League from 1988 to 1993. Pawley was slight of height,
not particularly "well built" but not an athletic shape either
and he sported a sort of blond combover hairstyle as I remember.
His countenance was affable. He didn't sprint very much, mainly
ambled about with a genial air. However on the two occasions I
saw him he maintained a perfectly decent control over what were,
admittedly, quite anodyne matches. I believe he went on to give
great service to football in East Anglia. He was then based in
Cambridgeshire,
#Post#: 52732--------------------------------------------------
Re: Seen him - tick!
DIR By: Acme Thunderer
Date: September 13, 2022, 10:06 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: TVOS link ---
>
> [quote author=Acme Thunderer link=topic=3972.msg52707#msg52707
date=1663064594]
> [quote author=Acme Thunderer link=topic=3972.msg52598#msg52598
date=1662817615]
> In the absence of any football, I have been taking a look
through my well-thumbed copy of Upton's. Looking at 1946-79 to
begin with, I reckon I saw live about 100 FL referees, mostly at
Selhurst Park, these being detailed below. I can name at least
one relevant match for most of the referees listed. Can anyone
match this or care to comment, other than to confirm that I must
lead a very sad life?! I'll post the later period soon.
>
> N Ashley, K Baker, M Baker, P Baldwin, V Batty, D Biddle, W
Bombroff, D Brady, J Bray, L Burden, K Burns, V Callow, W
Castle, N Burtenshaw, P Bye, L Callaghan, W Clements, D Corbett,
G Courtney, R Crabb, K Dagnall, R Darlington, H Davey, T Dawes,
J Finney, G Flint, M Fussey, A Glasson, W Gow, A Gunn, K
Hackett, B Hill, G Hill, J Homewood, K Howley, E Hughes, J
Hunting, D Hutchinson, V James, E Jennings, R Johnson, E Jolly,
G Jones, I Jones, M Kerkof, G Kew, R Kirkpatrick, R Lee, A Lees,
D Lloyd, M Lowe, D Lyden, B Martin, J Martin, C Maskell, R
Matthewson, N Midgley, T Mills, A Morrissey, G Napthine, H New,
C Newsome, C Nicholls, F Nicholson, D Nippard, R Paine, P
Partridge, E Read, P Reeves, T Reynolds, A Robinson, G Roper, K
Salmon, M Scott, A Seville, J Sewell, L Shapter, M Sinclair, D
Smith, T Spencer, R Spittle, B Stevens, K Styles, J Taylor, M
Taylor, J Thacker, C Thomas, R Tinkler, R Toseland, D Turner, K
Walker, E Wallace, P Walters, A Weller, C White, H Williams, J
Worrall, K Wynn, J Yates.
>
--- End Quote ---
A mull through these early refs:
Most frequent visitors to Selhurst Park - Norman Burtenshaw,
Harry New, Ray Tinkler
Best - Joe Worrall, Newcastle v Nottingham Forest in the FA Cup,
head and shoulders over the rest, Jack Taylor - Palace v
Liverpool, plus Jim Finney and Ken Dagnall
Worst - Peter Bye, consecutive matches at Selhurst - FA Youth
Cup and League v Huddersfield. Jack Taylor (yes JT), Palace v
Rochdale in the League Cup, Bill Bombroff, Palace v Arsenal when
he was completely out of his depth.
Hardest - Ricky Nicholson, Palace v West Ham, in which six
players were 'booked' including Geoff Hurst for time-wasting
Lenient - Leo Callaghan, Millwall v Palace in the 'Battle of the
Den', plus Geoff Roper
Bizarre - Eddie Hughes and the 'clock' incident at SP, Bill
Castle and the 'Queen in brawl at the Palace' incident, Kevin
Howley booking 10 Mansfield players at the end of a FA cup tie
at SP
Funniest - Roger Kirkpatrick and (a distant second) Maurice
Fussey.
[/quote]
Before my time, but what did Jack Taylor do so wrong in the fine
3-3 draw we achieved at Selhurst Park in September 1971?
[/quote]
My apologies, never post criticism on RTR without giving an
explanation! I'm afraid Jack completely messed up the game for
the bulk of the 16,000 crowd in this 2nd round League Cup tie in
Sept 1970, not long after he had officiated at the World Cup. He
seemed totally disinterested from the start and missed several
key incidents including one of the most obvious penalties (to
the Palace) you are ever likely to see, plus ignoring/missing
linesmen flagging and so on. OK, I was biased but disinterest
should never be shown by a referee at that level, and if Jack
had thought a 2nd round LC game between two lower division teams
was beneath him, I would question why he was refereeing that
game. And that in a game which produced six goals and a lot of
excitement. I should perhaps have added that when Jack returned
to Selhurst not long after to referee Palace v Liverpool in Div
1, he was back to his very best, hence my placement of him in
the 'best category' as well. And the Palace lost that one!
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