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#Post#: 52389--------------------------------------------------
Re: This weekend and VAR
DIR By: PhiltheRef
Date: September 5, 2022, 6:34 am
---------------------------------------------------------
How's about VAR involvement is only when asked by on field
official?
If they had an obscured view they could request input otherwise
trust their instincts and get on with it.
The request for involvement should be phrased similarly to
Rugby.
"I believe that to be a Red Card Offence" is there anything to
change my decision"
Is there any reason why I shouldn't award a penalty kick?
#Post#: 52392--------------------------------------------------
Re: This weekend and VAR
DIR By: TVOS
Date: September 5, 2022, 6:55 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: cwh link ---
>
> [quote author=Ashington46 link=topic=3949.msg52241#msg52241
date=1662233291]
> It all started in 1991 with the introduction of the fourth
official who, I am sure was put in place to be the rubbing rag
for rival managers and benches ----they must have a constant
earache these days.
>
> We used to have 22 players in matches officiated by three
people in a physical game which was enjoyed by most fans who
would then dicuss the merits of the said game and its
officiating.
> We now have a game with 40 players, any of whom could be
involved in the game up to a maximum of 32 and the game is
officiated by 4 onfield officials and 2 VAR people. The game is
far less physical, thus it should be easier to officiate,
however, a lot of fans to whiom I speak throughout the country
moan like mad about VAR and the officials.
> I am straight with them and ask them if they enjoy the game,
some do and some don't, however, they pay a lot of money and
have to endure thte constant changes which are made to TLOG each
season but which don't make the game any better as a spectator
sport.
>
> Those running the game seem intent on trying to make it a
'perfect spectacle' however, they need to have a good look at
just what has been happening in the last 31 years instead of
trying to make it a digital festival. It is a simple game which
is being made more complicated by needless meddling.
>
--- End Quote ---
This is why I posted elsewhere that the Bury AFC v North Shields
match shown on the Red Button was enjoyable to watch without VAR
etc
[/quote]
... until people started throwing flares into the ground because
they can't decide which bury to support!
#Post#: 52428--------------------------------------------------
Re: This weekend and VAR
DIR By: rustyref
Date: September 5, 2022, 12:03 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
The very obvious problem is the management, or rather the lack
of it. At the start of the season VAR wasn't really getting
involved at all, step forward just a month and they are now
getting involved with very trivial things. And it isn't the
first season this has happened, i.e. the "bar" moved during the
season. It can't be the referees collectively deciding this, it
has to be management directing them on it, and I'm sure it has
the match officials completely confused and devoid of
confidence.
#Post#: 52479--------------------------------------------------
Re: This weekend and VAR
DIR By: Readingfan
Date: September 6, 2022, 10:37 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Article from Henry Winter in The Times -
HTML https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/57b9f306-2d1f-11ed-b64b-1375cd73757d?shareToken=2e7914309219ff3573158807328f8748
He praises light touch UEFA VAR in Euro 2020 and notes there
were only 18 VAR interventions in the 51 games - if anyone
happens to know, it would be interesting to know how many VAR
interventions there were in first 5 rounds of Premier League
this season.
I think the article is perhaps a bit lazy at times. Winter
writes that VAR should be swift and correct, which is easy to
write on paper but perhaps less easy to implement in reality.
Winter has a 5 point plan to improve VAR.
1. Have a 90 second time limit on making decisions
2. Have officials working in same VAR teams and have them at the
stadium rather than at a remote location.
3. Mic up officials and broadcast conversations to fans/viewers.
4. Work with the managers.
5. Bring Howard Webb in and have him more closely follow UEFA's
'light touch' model
Point 1 might sound good in theory but runs the risk of being
swift but incorrect. I'm not convinced rushed decisions is going
to lead to any greater accuracy. He says offside decisions
shouldn't take 4 minutes to make but it did on Sunday and seems
to have been accepted as correct by most. There have also been
plenty of previous examples of offside decisions in CL taking
several minutes, although should be quicker this season with
semi-automated offside system.
Point 2 does not seem to be standard in most countries, where
they have the choice. UEFA started off having referees at
stadiums but I think have largely now moved to having a remote
location where they can be properly briefed/debriefed. There
could obviously be a benefit to the same people working together
but obvious logistical challenges with some officials unable to
officiate certain teams, different referees doing games each
week and needing to work around people's availability. For
instance, you could pair Anthony Taylor and Stuart Attwell but
what do you do if you want Taylor to referee a Monday night
match but Attwell has a UEFA appointment on the Tuesday? Or
indeed if you want Taylor to referee on a Saturday and you also
want Attwell to referee that weekend.
Point 3 is the ideal I think but isn't done anywhere in the
world currently and is outside PL's remit. Following processes
in place in countries like America would be a good start.
Point 4 is rather vague.
Points 1, 2 and 3 seem to contradict Point 5 as none of them are
in line with how UEFA currently do things really. The article
seems to argue for following examples from elsewhere whilst at
the same time suggesting the PL should start doing things that
aren't really being done anywhere else.
#Post#: 52490--------------------------------------------------
Re: This weekend and VAR
DIR By: Affy_Moose
Date: September 6, 2022, 3:27 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Readingfan link ---
>
> Article from Henry Winter in The Times -
HTML https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/57b9f306-2d1f-11ed-b64b-1375cd73757d?shareToken=2e7914309219ff3573158807328f8748
>
> He praises light touch UEFA VAR in Euro 2020 and notes there
were only 18 VAR interventions in the 51 games - if anyone
happens to know, it would be interesting to know how many VAR
interventions there were in first 5 rounds of Premier League
this season.
>
> I think the article is perhaps a bit lazy at times. Winter
writes that VAR should be swift and correct, which is easy to
write on paper but perhaps less easy to implement in reality.
>
> Winter has a 5 point plan to improve VAR.
>
> 1. Have a 90 second time limit on making decisions
> 2. Have officials working in same VAR teams and have them at
the stadium rather than at a remote location.
> 3. Mic up officials and broadcast conversations to
fans/viewers.
> 4. Work with the managers.
> 5. Bring Howard Webb in and have him more closely follow
UEFA's 'light touch' model
>
> Point 1 might sound good in theory but runs the risk of being
swift but incorrect. I'm not convinced rushed decisions is going
to lead to any greater accuracy. He says offside decisions
shouldn't take 4 minutes to make but it did on Sunday and seems
to have been accepted as correct by most. There have also been
plenty of previous examples of offside decisions in CL taking
several minutes, although should be quicker this season with
semi-automated offside system.
>
> Point 2 does not seem to be standard in most countries, where
they have the choice. UEFA started off having referees at
stadiums but I think have largely now moved to having a remote
location where they can be properly briefed/debriefed. There
could obviously be a benefit to the same people working together
but obvious logistical challenges with some officials unable to
officiate certain teams, different referees doing games each
week and needing to work around people's availability. For
instance, you could pair Anthony Taylor and Stuart Attwell but
what do you do if you want Taylor to referee a Monday night
match but Attwell has a UEFA appointment on the Tuesday? Or
indeed if you want Taylor to referee on a Saturday and you also
want Attwell to referee that weekend.
>
> Point 3 is the ideal I think but isn't done anywhere in the
world currently and is outside PL's remit. Following processes
in place in countries like America would be a good start.
>
> Point 4 is rather vague.
>
> Points 1, 2 and 3 seem to contradict Point 5 as none of them
are in line with how UEFA currently do things really. The
article seems to argue for following examples from elsewhere
whilst at the same time suggesting the PL should start doing
things that aren't really being done anywhere else.
>
--- End Quote ---
Thanks for sharing this. Makes interesting reading.
Part of the issue with comparing to European competition is that
the standards are simply better, and the European Championships
(as part of this example) had 4x officials involved in VAR.
Realistically, this just isn't possible in most European
leagues, and I suspect not possible in England either. Sure,
training and recruitment could be made, but the benefits are
likely to be small and it may simply be impossible to emulate
it.
I'm not sure having them in the stadium makes a jot of
difference. Does the ability to see them through glass in a
directors' box help in any way? Perhaps, keeping teams together
or more often could improve things, but it also runs the risk of
creating less variation and even bigger differences between
standards across teams.
I don't mind point 3, but agree, it's outside the PL's hands.
Before we mic up VAR, I'd prefer to hear the referee team's
communication. However, anyone who has used comms at any level
knows that football referee communication doesn't sound remotely
like rugby or American football officials. That's partly down
to how much running referees do, but also the regularity of
communication amongst the team, and also the regularity and
manner in which the team communicates with the players. The
game is simply far too different to offer the same benefits.
I'm also not sure how working with managers is meant to be
improved. Every year they are informed of the LotG changes and
how (for instance) VAR will operate. Each year they demonstrate
complete ignorance of many of the Laws, and the various
protocols.
I'm not against working more closely together, but I do wonder
to what end? Do we want them to be more patient, more
understanding, more involved, more knowledgeable?
One thing I will always agree with is that football associations
and governing bodies have always been utterly dreadful at
communication re referees. Even those involved at the sharp
point of the game (coaches, pundits etc.) talk like they're
reviewing a book they have never read. Fans get their
understanding from inane interviews and punditry, and frankly
have no idea how most of the game operates. That is the fault
of football professionals and their ignorance, but a huge amount
of responsibility lies with our governing bodies.
#Post#: 52492--------------------------------------------------
Re: This weekend and VAR
DIR By: rustyref
Date: September 6, 2022, 5:04 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Affy_Moose link ---
>
> [quote author=Readingfan link=topic=3949.msg52479#msg52479
date=1662478661]
> Article from Henry Winter in The Times -
HTML https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/57b9f306-2d1f-11ed-b64b-1375cd73757d?shareToken=2e7914309219ff3573158807328f8748
>
> He praises light touch UEFA VAR in Euro 2020 and notes there
were only 18 VAR interventions in the 51 games - if anyone
happens to know, it would be interesting to know how many VAR
interventions there were in first 5 rounds of Premier League
this season.
>
> I think the article is perhaps a bit lazy at times. Winter
writes that VAR should be swift and correct, which is easy to
write on paper but perhaps less easy to implement in reality.
>
> Winter has a 5 point plan to improve VAR.
>
> 1. Have a 90 second time limit on making decisions
> 2. Have officials working in same VAR teams and have them at
the stadium rather than at a remote location.
> 3. Mic up officials and broadcast conversations to
fans/viewers.
> 4. Work with the managers.
> 5. Bring Howard Webb in and have him more closely follow
UEFA's 'light touch' model
>
> Point 1 might sound good in theory but runs the risk of being
swift but incorrect. I'm not convinced rushed decisions is going
to lead to any greater accuracy. He says offside decisions
shouldn't take 4 minutes to make but it did on Sunday and seems
to have been accepted as correct by most. There have also been
plenty of previous examples of offside decisions in CL taking
several minutes, although should be quicker this season with
semi-automated offside system.
>
> Point 2 does not seem to be standard in most countries, where
they have the choice. UEFA started off having referees at
stadiums but I think have largely now moved to having a remote
location where they can be properly briefed/debriefed. There
could obviously be a benefit to the same people working together
but obvious logistical challenges with some officials unable to
officiate certain teams, different referees doing games each
week and needing to work around people's availability. For
instance, you could pair Anthony Taylor and Stuart Attwell but
what do you do if you want Taylor to referee a Monday night
match but Attwell has a UEFA appointment on the Tuesday? Or
indeed if you want Taylor to referee on a Saturday and you also
want Attwell to referee that weekend.
>
> Point 3 is the ideal I think but isn't done anywhere in the
world currently and is outside PL's remit. Following processes
in place in countries like America would be a good start.
>
> Point 4 is rather vague.
>
> Points 1, 2 and 3 seem to contradict Point 5 as none of them
are in line with how UEFA currently do things really. The
article seems to argue for following examples from elsewhere
whilst at the same time suggesting the PL should start doing
things that aren't really being done anywhere else.
>
--- End Quote ---
Thanks for sharing this. Makes interesting reading.
Part of the issue with comparing to European competition is that
the standards are simply better, and the European Championships
(as part of this example) had 4x officials involved in VAR.
Realistically, this just isn't possible in most European
leagues, and I suspect not possible in England either. Sure,
training and recruitment could be made, but the benefits are
likely to be small and it may simply be impossible to emulate
it.
I'm not sure having them in the stadium makes a jot of
difference. Does the ability to see them through glass in a
directors' box help in any way? Perhaps, keeping teams together
or more often could improve things, but it also runs the risk of
creating less variation and even bigger differences between
standards across teams.
I don't mind point 3, but agree, it's outside the PL's hands.
Before we mic up VAR, I'd prefer to hear the referee team's
communication. However, anyone who has used comms at any level
knows that football referee communication doesn't sound remotely
like rugby or American football officials. That's partly down
to how much running referees do, but also the regularity of
communication amongst the team, and also the regularity and
manner in which the team communicates with the players. The
game is simply far too different to offer the same benefits.
I'm also not sure how working with managers is meant to be
improved. Every year they are informed of the LotG changes and
how (for instance) VAR will operate. Each year they demonstrate
complete ignorance of many of the Laws, and the various
protocols.
I'm not against working more closely together, but I do wonder
to what end? Do we want them to be more patient, more
understanding, more involved, more knowledgeable?
One thing I will always agree with is that football associations
and governing bodies have always been utterly dreadful at
communication re referees. Even those involved at the sharp
point of the game (coaches, pundits etc.) talk like they're
reviewing a book they have never read. Fans get their
understanding from inane interviews and punditry, and frankly
have no idea how most of the game operates. That is the fault
of football professionals and their ignorance, but a huge amount
of responsibility lies with our governing bodies.
[/quote]
Agree with all of that. Even if the VAR officials were at the
ground instead of Stockley Park, they wouldn't be in the ground
and rather would be outside in the car park in a mobile unit.
But even if they did manage to find them a space big enough
inside the stadium, I'm struggling to see what possible benefits
it provides.
Communication is key, they have to at least do what they do in
the US and present a weekly review including the VAR comms. I
still think letting the crowd and TV audience hear all of the
officials' comms is a stretch too far and isn't going to happen,
but at least explain the decisions.
#Post#: 52501--------------------------------------------------
Re: This weekend and VAR
DIR By: Microscopist
Date: September 7, 2022, 9:03 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Don't think this has been mentioned elsewhere, sorry if I've
missed it.
Watching City in the Champion's League last night they appeared
to be using a semi-automated VAR for offside. Certainly the
graphics were much improved and looked more convincing - whether
it is more accurate or not will depend on the frame rate of the
cameras, but it would appear to be more objective. There was a
particularly good shot for the disallowed goal showing Foden
offside in the build up but I haven't been able to find a replay
of that. There is one from the Chelsea game linked below and a
link to a description of how it works. It employs 14 cameras to
make a "3D" model.
I'd also comment that the refereeing performance seemed to me to
be a cut above that which we have been used to recently in the
Premier League - though both teams were particularly well
behaved also which may have made it easier.
[img]
HTML https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Fb_b6uRWAAgXQfc.jpg:large[/img]
UEFA link:
HTML https://www.uefa.com/insideuefa/news/0279-160366f9e5a0-9e2236b56ada-1000--european-referees-primed-for-a-new-campaign/
#Post#: 52503--------------------------------------------------
Re: This weekend and VAR
DIR By: Affy_Moose
Date: September 7, 2022, 9:43 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Microscopist link ---
>
> Don't think this has been mentioned elsewhere, sorry if I've
missed it.
> Watching City in the Champion's League last night they
appeared to be using a semi-automated VAR for offside.
Certainly the graphics were much improved and looked more
convincing - whether it is more accurate or not will depend on
the frame rate of the cameras, but it would appear to be more
objective. There was a particularly good shot for the
disallowed goal showing Foden offside in the build up but I
haven't been able to find a replay of that. There is one from
the Chelsea game linked below and a link to a description of how
it works. It employs 14 cameras to make a "3D" model.
>
> I'd also comment that the refereeing performance seemed to me
to be a cut above that which we have been used to recently in
the Premier League - though both teams were particularly well
behaved also which may have made it easier.
>
>
[img]
HTML https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Fb_b6uRWAAgXQfc.jpg:large[/img]
>
> UEFA link:
>
>
HTML https://www.uefa.com/insideuefa/news/0279-160366f9e5a0-9e2236b56ada-1000--european-referees-primed-for-a-new-campaign/
>
--- End Quote ---
I suspect this technology will make the 'selling' of offside
decisions by VAR much easier. The obvious problem is that it is
very expensive. It makes top level matches look like a video
game, and other leagues like amateur grassroots.
Scotland will soon have VAR 'light'. For many matches
(effectively those without Sky cameras), I believe the cameras
will number six. The differential between what many fans see on
TV for the Champions League relative to their local football...
will be even more stark.
#Post#: 52506--------------------------------------------------
Re: This weekend and VAR
DIR By: bmb
Date: September 7, 2022, 11:48 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Microscopist link ---
>
> Don't think this has been mentioned elsewhere, sorry if I've
missed it.
> Watching City in the Champion's League last night they
appeared to be using a semi-automated VAR for offside.
Certainly the graphics were much improved and looked more
convincing - whether it is more accurate or not will depend on
the frame rate of the cameras, but it would appear to be more
objective. There was a particularly good shot for the
disallowed goal showing Foden offside in the build up but I
haven't been able to find a replay of that. There is one from
the Chelsea game linked below and a link to a description of how
it works. It employs 14 cameras to make a "3D" model.
>
--- End Quote ---
It was trialled fairly recently but I can't for the life of me
remember which competition that was in. From what I recall the
frame rate it runs at is about 9/10 times higher than the normal
VAR system so the accuracy level is higher, as the moment the
ball was kicked is more precise.
--- Quote from: Microscopist link ---
>
> I'd also comment that the refereeing performance seemed to me
to be a cut above that which we have been used to recently in
the Premier League - though both teams were particularly well
behaved also which may have made it easier.
>
--- End Quote ---
István did the Chelsea game. He had a superb game although that
was not him on peak performance. He has more patience than me,
they didn't stop whinging from kick off until final whistle
[emoji57] Oh and Mason Mount... [emoji16]
#Post#: 52510--------------------------------------------------
Re: This weekend and VAR
DIR By: Microscopist
Date: September 7, 2022, 2:15 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: bmb link ---
>
> [quote author=Microscopist link=topic=3949.msg52501#msg52501
date=1662559400]
> Don't think this has been mentioned elsewhere, sorry if I've
missed it.
> Watching City in the Champion's League last night they
appeared to be using a semi-automated VAR for offside.
Certainly the graphics were much improved and looked more
convincing - whether it is more accurate or not will depend on
the frame rate of the cameras, but it would appear to be more
objective. There was a particularly good shot for the
disallowed goal showing Foden offside in the build up but I
haven't been able to find a replay of that. There is one from
the Chelsea game linked below and a link to a description of how
it works. It employs 14 cameras to make a "3D" model.
>
--- End Quote ---
It was trialled fairly recently but I can't for the life of me
remember which competition that was in. From what I recall the
frame rate it runs at is about 9/10 times higher than the normal
VAR system so the accuracy level is higher, as the moment the
ball was kicked is more precise.
--- Quote from: Microscopist link ---
>
> I'd also comment that the refereeing performance seemed to me
to be a cut above that which we have been used to recently in
the Premier League - though both teams were particularly well
behaved also which may have made it easier.
>
--- End Quote ---
István did the Chelsea game. He had a superb game although that
was not him on peak performance. He has more patience than me,
they didn't stop whinging from kick off until final whistle
[emoji57] Oh and Mason Mount... [emoji16]
[/quote]
According to "The Athletic" the camera frame rate would appear
to 50fps which is fairly standard. However in the fully fledged
system the ball will have a tracker inside it which can be
sampled 500 times per minute. According to UEFA the system, as
currently being used in the Champion's League does not have a
tracker in the ball.
HTML https://theathletic.com/3474673/2022/08/03/champions-league-semi-automated-offside-technology-cameras/
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