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#Post#: 51397--------------------------------------------------
David Webb, Crewe v Northampton
DIR By: Acme Thunderer
Date: August 20, 2022, 1:32 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
I don't think it can be that commonplace that an experienced SG
referee visits a L2 ground and ends up incurring the wrath of
both sets of fans, players and managers, but that is exactly
what David Webb did at Crewe this afternoon.
The first half was good entertainment, and certainly better than
we ever had in L1 at Gresty Road last season. However, Crewe's
two goals were mired in controversy, in particular a
seemingly-obvious foul on a Northampton player in the build-up
to a spectacular first goal which David waved away. The second
goal looked as though it may have gone out for a goal kick
beforehand or been offside, but as AR James Wilson was right in
line, protests were more muted. To their credit, Northampton hit
straight back, half time 2-1.
If the 1st half was entertaining, the 2nd half was feisty as
Northampton pressed continuously and a gusty wind didn't help
either side. David erred on the side of leniency which was
probably not a good thing in the circumstances. However, as the
game moved into added time, it looked as though Crewe had done
enough to claim an undeserved three points. However the real
controversy was still to come as six minutes were added when 4-5
were probably enough, and the clock had passed the six minutes
when Northampton earned three quick-fire corners. David seemed
to want to blow for time but then allowed all three to be taken,
and yes, you've guessed it, Northampton scored direct from the
third corner. David's final whistle came immediately after Crewe
kicked off, it seemed almost apologetic and was greeted with a
chorus of boos from all round the ground and an unedifying
spectacle in the centre circle. The draw was deserved but not in
this way. And the BBC have reported that the goal was scored
after '90+7', thus giving new meaning to 'a minimum of six
minutes'.
Who was it who said just a couple of weeks ago on RTR that
referees should blow for time after awarding corners if time is
up? I hope the message may get through to Mr Webb who has always
seemed to me to be one of the better SG2 referees. An afternoon
to remember but not for the right reasons!
#Post#: 51402--------------------------------------------------
Re: David Webb, Crewe v Northampton
DIR By: TVOS
Date: August 20, 2022, 4:20 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
Isn't "90+7" okay for "a minimum of six minutes"?
Whether it should have got that far is a different matter.
#Post#: 51406--------------------------------------------------
Re: David Webb, Crewe v Northampton
DIR By: Failed Ref
Date: August 21, 2022, 1:55 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Our local paper in Northampton has highlighted the poor quality
of refereeing in the EFL quoting Nigel Pearson of Bristol City
as saying he was thinking of withdrawing from football because
of the poor standards in the leagues. Whatever, referees have
always dropped howlers and why should they not do do now? Is it
really worse now? I do not know as I do not watch much football
at this level now.
#Post#: 51407--------------------------------------------------
Re: David Webb, Crewe v Northampton
DIR By: Whistleblower
Date: August 21, 2022, 3:24 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Failed Ref link ---
>
> Our local paper in Northampton has highlighted the poor
quality of refereeing in the EFL quoting Nigel Pearson of
Bristol City as saying he was thinking of withdrawing from
football because of the poor standards in the leagues. Whatever,
referees have always dropped howlers and why should they not do
do now? Is it really worse now? I do not know as I do not watch
much football at this level now.
>
--- End Quote ---
I suspect that refereeing has improved upon the general standard
of a generation or two ago but now the game is so much quicker,
the gamesmanship so much more subtle and the scrutiny so much
more forensic that it appears as if refereeing is getting worse
because the mistakes, which have always been there, are now
highlighted and debated in depth.
#Post#: 51408--------------------------------------------------
Re: David Webb, Crewe v Northampton
DIR By: OwdReds
Date: August 21, 2022, 3:30 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Whistleblower, you beat me to it. Was in the process of typing
something very similar.
#Post#: 51414--------------------------------------------------
Re: David Webb, Crewe v Northampton
DIR By: bmb
Date: August 21, 2022, 5:22 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Whistleblower link ---
>
> [quote author=Failed Ref link=topic=3898.msg51406#msg51406
date=1661064935]
> Our local paper in Northampton has highlighted the poor
quality of refereeing in the EFL quoting Nigel Pearson of
Bristol City as saying he was thinking of withdrawing from
football because of the poor standards in the leagues. Whatever,
referees have always dropped howlers and why should they not do
do now? Is it really worse now? I do not know as I do not watch
much football at this level now.
>
--- End Quote ---
I suspect that refereeing has improved upon the general standard
of a generation or two ago but now the game is so much quicker,
the gamesmanship so much more subtle and the scrutiny so much
more forensic that it appears as if refereeing is getting worse
because the mistakes, which have always been there, are now
highlighted and debated in depth.
[/quote]
This! Add in 24+ cameras in super HD with slo mo and zoom in
capabilities as opposed to the 1 shakey grainy camera around the
halfway line!
As for Pearson the phrase "desperate to stay relevant" springs
to mind for some reason!
#Post#: 51416--------------------------------------------------
Re: David Webb, Crewe v Northampton
DIR By: TVOS
Date: August 21, 2022, 5:38 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: bmb link ---
>
> [quote author=Whistleblower link=topic=3898.msg51407#msg51407
date=1661070295]
> [quote author=Failed Ref link=topic=3898.msg51406#msg51406
date=1661064935]
> Our local paper in Northampton has highlighted the poor
quality of refereeing in the EFL quoting Nigel Pearson of
Bristol City as saying he was thinking of withdrawing from
football because of the poor standards in the leagues. Whatever,
referees have always dropped howlers and why should they not do
do now? Is it really worse now? I do not know as I do not watch
much football at this level now.
>
--- End Quote ---
I suspect that refereeing has improved upon the general standard
of a generation or two ago but now the game is so much quicker,
the gamesmanship so much more subtle and the scrutiny so much
more forensic that it appears as if refereeing is getting worse
because the mistakes, which have always been there, are now
highlighted and debated in depth.
[/quote]
This! Add in 24+ cameras in super HD with slo mo and zoom in
capabilities as opposed to the 1 shakey grainy camera around the
halfway line!
As for Pearson the phrase "desperate to stay relevant" springs
to mind for some reason!
[/quote]
But there's none of those fancy things at League Two level.
#Post#: 51418--------------------------------------------------
Re: David Webb, Crewe v Northampton
DIR By: Mikael W
Date: August 21, 2022, 6:57 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Whistleblower link ---
>
> [quote author=Failed Ref link=topic=3898.msg51406#msg51406
date=1661064935]
> Our local paper in Northampton has highlighted the poor
quality of refereeing in the EFL quoting Nigel Pearson of
Bristol City as saying he was thinking of withdrawing from
football because of the poor standards in the leagues. Whatever,
referees have always dropped howlers and why should they not do
do now? Is it really worse now? I do not know as I do not watch
much football at this level now.
>
--- End Quote ---
I suspect that refereeing has improved upon the general standard
of a generation or two ago but now the game is so much quicker,
the gamesmanship so much more subtle and the scrutiny so much
more forensic that it appears as if refereeing is getting worse
because the mistakes, which have always been there, are now
highlighted and debated in depth.
[/quote]
I disagree. To me, it is remarkable how much referees have not
improved in the era when endless video training clips and
education are de rigueur. It is absolutely startling how many
key match incidents are wrongly assessed against this
background. More-and-more of their discretion and common-sense
is removed by time, and mediocrity - rather than excellence - is
effectively rewarded. Pearson's comments were absolutely
insufferable and the idea that the refs would make him quit is
reminiscent of a spoiled child and should be laughed at, but: my
general idea is that he is quite right about the level of
officiating.
The referees at World Cup 1986 (often) drank alcohol on the days
when they weren't officiating matches. This (rightly!) seems
hilariously amateur to us nowadays. Of course, the game has
changed for everyone in years since, but how on earth can one
reconcile that the level of refereeing at this WC was ≈ as
good compared to almost all since. In many cases, it was much
better even! Something has gone very wrong...
The only positive area of development, without any doubt, is
linesmen/assistant referees, who have gotten exponentially
better with passing years. It is way too cheap and way too
defensive of us to use the 'more cameras, more exposure, less
tolerance' argument. More cameras should be able to show in
detail all of the decisions that referees now get right due to
being fitter and better trained! But, more-or-less, exactly the
opposite is true.
And, unfortunately - VAR is only going to (and already has) made
things much, much worse on that front. But, one must say that is
really is 'of our (modern) time'. To rephrase the quite
excellent Barry Davies quote about commentators: "Each
generation of football gets the referees it deserves".
#Post#: 51419--------------------------------------------------
Re: David Webb, Crewe v Northampton
DIR By: Leggy
Date: August 21, 2022, 7:00 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Failed Ref link ---
>
> Our local paper in Northampton has highlighted the poor
quality of refereeing in the EFL quoting Nigel Pearson of
Bristol City as saying he was thinking of withdrawing from
football because of the poor standards in the leagues. Whatever,
referees have always dropped howlers and why should they not do
do now? Is it really worse now? I do not know as I do not watch
much football at this level now.
>
--- End Quote ---
If Nigel Pearson wants to withdraw from football nothing is
stopping him. I suspect a number of EFL referees and assistant
referees would be pleased not to have him scowling on the
touch-line. I can also guarantee that he and his charges make
more mistakes than any EFL match official on any given matchday.
#Post#: 51429--------------------------------------------------
Re: David Webb, Crewe v Northampton
DIR By: Whistleblower
Date: August 21, 2022, 9:27 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Mikael W link ---
>
> [quote author=Whistleblower link=topic=3898.msg51407#msg51407
date=1661070295]
> [quote author=Failed Ref link=topic=3898.msg51406#msg51406
date=1661064935]
> Our local paper in Northampton has highlighted the poor
quality of refereeing in the EFL quoting Nigel Pearson of
Bristol City as saying he was thinking of withdrawing from
football because of the poor standards in the leagues. Whatever,
referees have always dropped howlers and why should they not do
do now? Is it really worse now? I do not know as I do not watch
much football at this level now.
>
--- End Quote ---
I suspect that refereeing has improved upon the general standard
of a generation or two ago but now the game is so much quicker,
the gamesmanship so much more subtle and the scrutiny so much
more forensic that it appears as if refereeing is getting worse
because the mistakes, which have always been there, are now
highlighted and debated in depth.
[/quote]
I disagree. To me, it is remarkable how much referees have not
improved in the era when endless video training clips and
education are de rigueur. It is absolutely startling how many
key match incidents are wrongly assessed against this
background. More-and-more of their discretion and common-sense
is removed by time, and mediocrity - rather than excellence - is
effectively rewarded. Pearson's comments were absolutely
insufferable and the idea that the refs would make him quit is
reminiscent of a spoiled child and should be laughed at, but: my
general idea is that he is quite right about the level of
officiating.
The referees at World Cup 1986 (often) drank alcohol on the days
when they weren't officiating matches. This (rightly!) seems
hilariously amateur to us nowadays. Of course, the game has
changed for everyone in years since, but how on earth can one
reconcile that the level of refereeing at this WC was ≈ as
good compared to almost all since. In many cases, it was much
better even! Something has gone very wrong...
The only positive area of development, without any doubt, is
linesmen/assistant referees, who have gotten exponentially
better with passing years. It is way too cheap and way too
defensive of us to use the 'more cameras, more exposure, less
tolerance' argument. More cameras should be able to show in
detail all of the decisions that referees now get right due to
being fitter and better trained! But, more-or-less, exactly the
opposite is true.
And, unfortunately - VAR is only going to (and already has) made
things much, much worse on that front. But, one must say that is
really is 'of our (modern) time'. To rephrase the quite
excellent Barry Davies quote about commentators: "Each
generation of football gets the referees it deserves".
[/quote]
Your argument does not convince me I'm afraid. For there to be
empirical proof that refereeing has either improved or worsened
then there would have to be the same forensic examination of key
match incidents in the past as now in the present. However, in
the past such rigorous scrutiny did not pertain and so therefore
surely nothing more than an impression can be offered which is
why I began my post with " I suspect " I watched a fair bit of
football in the 1980s and 1990s and for every George Courtney
and Joe Worrall there were hosts of referees making really quite
obvious mistakes largely because their positioning was so poor
due to lack of sharp fitness.
What is different is the level of expectation. In those days
refereeing error was seen as part of the game, now with VAR,
video training clips etc an expectation has arisen that
decisions must be 100% right all of the time. When human
judgement is involved, they never can be but I think the
accuracy now is greater than than it used to be.
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