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#Post#: 51364--------------------------------------------------
Re: Forest v West Ham - R Jones
DIR By: Leggy
Date: August 19, 2022, 3:24 am
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--- Quote from: JCFC link ---
>
> As often, it depends on interpretation of the language.
>
> Is "an obvious goal-scoring opportunity" to be taken as
> an opportunity to score an obvious goal
> or
> an obvious opportunity to score a goal?
>
> For what it is worth, I would favour the latter.
>
> I wonder how the concept is translated into other languages.
>
--- End Quote ---
I would agree with your opinion. Mainly because you can add
other adjectives to help define how good / likely the
opportunity is: Remote, unlikely, fair, good, very good,
obvious, outstanding, certain.
As for other languages, they are a foreign land to me. For us
monolinguists, it is very fortunate that the language of
football officialdom is English!
#Post#: 51365--------------------------------------------------
Re: Forest v West Ham - R Jones
DIR By: Affy_Moose
Date: August 19, 2022, 5:15 am
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--- Quote from: Readingfan link ---
>
> As a general point, it is an interesting hypothetical question
as to what impact the likelihood of a goalkeeper making a save
should have.
>
> Of course there have been many cases where a goalkeeper has
failed to make a save they would have been expected to do so -
De Gea on Saturday seems to have been the latest example. And we
have all seen many instances where a defender is sent off before
any shot on target has even been forthcoming.
>
> If say you were 50/50 as to whether or not the goalkeeper
might have made a save, would you lean towards red or yellow?
>
--- End Quote ---
UEFA guidance has been pretty consistent over the years with
DOGSO by handball. A shot hitting a defender's arm with the
goalkeeper in position is seldom a red card offence.
Either the ball needs to be convincingly going into part of the
goal that is unguarded by the goalkeeper (i.e. open goal), or
the defender needs to be very proximate to the line.
I see consistency issues for people, considering a red card can
be given for DOGSO 40 yards from goal, but a handball on the
penalty spot might not be, but the guidance has been pretty
consistent.
Like many hypotheticals around subjectivity, we really need
video clips side by side to show what is/isn't. IFAB/UEFA are
usually good at sharing examples when new guidelines or law
updates are issued, but I always find them difficult to find
when looking for past changes.
#Post#: 51368--------------------------------------------------
Re: Forest v West Ham - R Jones
DIR By: bmb
Date: August 19, 2022, 9:00 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Leggy link ---
>
> As for other languages, they are a foreign land to me. For us
monolinguists, it is very fortunate that the language of
football officialdom is English!
>
--- End Quote ---
In Hungarian!
A player, substitute or substituted player who commits any of
the following offences is sent off:
• denying the opposing team a goal or an obvious goal-scoring
opportunity by a handball offence (except a goalkeeper within
their penalty area)
• denying a goal or an obvious goal-scoring opportunity to an
opponent whose overall movement is towards the offender’s goal
by an offence punishable by a free kick (unless as outlined
below)
Ki kell állítani azt a játékost, csere- vagy lecserélt játékost,
aki elköveti a következő szabálytalanságok valamelyikét:
• kezezés szabálytalansággal gól elérésében gátolja az
ellenfelet, vagy nyilvánvaló gólhelyzetet hiúsít meg (ez nem
vonatkozik a saját büntetőterületén lévő kapusra)
• gólt vagy nyilvánvaló gólhelyzetet akadályoz meg azzal, hogy
ellenfelével szemben, akinek mozgása a vétkes játékos kapuja
felé irányul,
szabadrúgással járó szabálytalanságot követ el (kivéve az alább
vázoltakat)
Denying a goal or an obvious goal-scoring opportunity
Where a player denies the opposing team a goal or an obvious
goal-scoring opportunity by a handball offence, the player is
sent off wherever the offence occurs.
Where a player commits an offence against an opponent within
their own penalty area which denies an opponent an obvious
goal-scoring opportunity and the referee awards a penalty kick,
the offender is cautioned if the offence was an attempt to play
the ball; in all other circumstances (e.g. holding, pulling,
pushing, no possibility to play the ball etc.) the offending
player must be sent off.
A player, sent-off player, substitute or substituted player who
enters the field of play without the required referee’s
permission and interferes with play or an opponent and denies
the opposing team a goal or an obvious goal-scoring opportunity
is guilty of a sending-off offence.
The following must be considered:
• distance between the offence and the goal
• general direction of the play
• likelihood of keeping or gaining control of the ball
• location and number of defenders
Gól vagy nyilvánvaló gólhelyzet meghiúsítása
Amennyiben egy játékos a kezezés szabálytalansággal gól
elérésében gátolja az ellenfelet vagy nyilvánvaló gólhelyzetet
hiúsít meg, ki kell állítani, bárhol is történt a
szabálytalanság.
Amennyiben egy játékos a saját büntetőterületén belül olyan
szabálytalanságot követ el ellenfelével szemben, amely
nyilvánvaló gólhelyzetet akadályoz
meg, és a játékvezető büntetőrúgást ítélt meg, a
játékost figyelmeztetésben kell részesíteni, ha a
szabálytalanság egyben a labda megjátszására tett próbálkozás is
volt; minden más esetben (pl.: visszatartás, visszahúzás, lökés,
nincs lehetőség a labda megjátszására stb.) a vétkes
játékost ki kell állítani Az a játékos, csere-, lecserélt
játékos vagy kiállított játékos, aki a szükséges
játékvezetői engedély nélkül lép a játéktérre és hatással
van a játékra, illetve az ellenfélre, valamint megakadályozza az
ellenfelet a gólszerzésben vagy nyilvánvaló gólszerzési
lehetőségét, kiállítással járó szabálytalanságban vétkes.
A játékvezetőknek a következőket kell figyelembe
vennie:
• a szabálytalanság és a kapu közötti távolság
• a játék általános iránya
• a labda megtartásának vagy megszerzésének a valószínűsége
• a védőjátékosok száma és helyzete
#Post#: 51882--------------------------------------------------
Re: Forest v West Ham - R Jones
DIR By: Mikael W
Date: August 28, 2022, 5:19 pm
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--- Quote from: Mikael W link ---
>
> Other defenders would have taken note: why the heck wouldn't
you do the same in another game if the punishment is only going
to be a caution...
>
> What you permit, you promote.
>
--- End Quote ---
#Post#: 51904--------------------------------------------------
Re: Forest v West Ham - R Jones
DIR By: jad
Date: August 29, 2022, 9:34 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: JCFC link ---
>
> As often, it depends on interpretation of the language.
>
> Is "an obvious goal-scoring opportunity" to be taken as
> an opportunity to score an obvious goal
> or
> an obvious opportunity to score a goal?
>
> For what it is worth, I would favour the latter.
>
> I wonder how the concept is translated into other languages.
>
--- End Quote ---
Given the hyphen in 'goal-scoring' (which also appears in the
version on the FIFA web-site), the only way I can interpret that
phrase is that both 'obvious' and 'goal-scoring' are adjectives
qualifying 'opportunity'. I will try to find some versions in
other languages, preferably ones in which the words for 'goal'
and 'opportunity' belong to different grammatical genders.
#Post#: 51905--------------------------------------------------
Re: Forest v West Ham - R Jones
DIR By: bmb
Date: August 29, 2022, 9:54 am
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Gól vagy nyilvánvaló gólhelyzet meghiúsítása - Denying a goal or
an obvious goal-scoring opportunity (This is from the official
Hungarian translation from the MLSZ)
Gól - a goal
vagy - or
nyilvánvaló - obvious
gólhelyzet - goal situation/goal-scoring
meghiúsítása - thwarting
Literal translation is: thwarting a goal or goal situation
goal shot translates to góllövés
#Post#: 51915--------------------------------------------------
Re: Forest v West Ham - R Jones
DIR By: jad
Date: August 29, 2022, 10:30 am
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When I finally track it down, the official Russian translation
of the Laws of the Game resolves the ambiguity:
Лишение
гола или
явной
возможности
забить
гол.
Literally: the denial of a goal or of a clear opportunity to
score a goal.
Likewise in Italian:
Negare la segnatura di una rete o un’evidente opportunitŕ di
segnare una rete
Literally: To deny the scoring of a goal or a clear opportunity
to score a goal.
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