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#Post#: 51189--------------------------------------------------
Re: Forest v West Ham - R Jones
DIR By: Ref Watcher
Date: August 15, 2022, 10:11 am
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An entertaining game, well refereed by Rob Jones (who, to me,
looks to have improved his fitness) and VAR working the way it
is supposed to - ensuring that the right decisions were arrived
at. Long may it continue.
#Post#: 51192--------------------------------------------------
Re: Forest v West Ham - R Jones
DIR By: Gorgeous George
Date: August 15, 2022, 10:36 am
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I actually think that his positioning was too far wide on this
incident Leggy and that’s probably why he couldn’t see it. He’s
on the corner of the box after coming wide for the initial
challenge before the cutback!
I also agree with RefWatcher that he looked very mobile
yesterday and certainly appears to be taking good care of his
training!
#Post#: 51251--------------------------------------------------
Re: Forest v West Ham - R Jones
DIR By: Readingfan
Date: August 16, 2022, 8:00 am
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As a general point, it is an interesting hypothetical question
as to what impact the likelihood of a goalkeeper making a save
should have.
Of course there have been many cases where a goalkeeper has
failed to make a save they would have been expected to do so -
De Gea on Saturday seems to have been the latest example. And we
have all seen many instances where a defender is sent off before
any shot on target has even been forthcoming.
If say you were 50/50 as to whether or not the goalkeeper might
have made a save, would you lean towards red or yellow?
#Post#: 51257--------------------------------------------------
Re: Forest v West Ham - R Jones
DIR By: Leggy
Date: August 16, 2022, 9:17 am
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--- Quote from: Readingfan link ---
>
> As a general point, it is an interesting hypothetical question
as to what impact the likelihood of a goalkeeper making a save
should have.
>
> Of course there have been many cases where a goalkeeper has
failed to make a save they would have been expected to do so -
De Gea on Saturday seems to have been the latest example. And we
have all seen many instances where a defender is sent off before
any shot on target has even been forthcoming.
>
> If say you were 50/50 as to whether or not the goalkeeper
might have made a save, would you lean towards red or yellow?
>
--- End Quote ---
50/50 - for me - does not meet the threshold of an "obvious"
goal-scoring opportunity.
#Post#: 51277--------------------------------------------------
Re: Forest v West Ham - R Jones
DIR By: Mikael W
Date: August 16, 2022, 3:20 pm
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--- Quote from: Leggy link ---
>
> I think, Pre-VAR, we would have been disappointed had a
referee not spotted the handball in real time.
>
--- End Quote ---
Pre-VAR, it would have been an absolute scandal if this was
missed!(!!!) Just imagine. Extremely poor miss by Jones.
I really think people are not seeing the wood for the trees in
the SPA vs. DOGSO debate also. A defender has, in the six-yard
box, made a goalkeeper-like save to try and stop a goal - sorry,
but this simply has to be a red card. Other defenders would have
taken note: why the heck wouldn't you do the same in another
game if the punishment is only going to be a caution, it is a
good bet. Sorry but it is just madness to me that a yellow card
is even being entertained here...
What you permit, you promote.
#Post#: 51281--------------------------------------------------
Re: Forest v West Ham - R Jones
DIR By: bmb
Date: August 16, 2022, 4:43 pm
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HTML https://youtu.be/hewehvuQG7c
#Post#: 51287--------------------------------------------------
Re: Forest v West Ham - R Jones
DIR By: Leggy
Date: August 17, 2022, 2:33 am
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It does depend on whether you are sanctioning the intent or the
outcome.
The intent was to prevent a goal. If one is punishing the
intent then the sanction will be a red card.
The outcome was that a handball offence took place that did not
prevent an obvious goal scoring opportunity. If one is
punishing the outcome, then the sanction will be a yellow card.
What does the Law ask us to sanction - intent or outcome?
(Genuine question, I am not trying to be a smart a$$!).
#Post#: 51288--------------------------------------------------
Re: Forest v West Ham - R Jones
DIR By: ARF
Date: August 17, 2022, 3:20 am
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--- Quote from: Leggy link ---
>
> What does the Law ask us to sanction - intent or outcome?
(Genuine question, I am not trying to be a smart a$$!).
>
--- End Quote ---
Outcome - the sending off offence is denying an obvious
goalscoring opportunity, not intending to deny an obvious
goalscoring opportunity. If we sanctioned based on intent, a
defender who handles a shot that still goes in should still be
sent off, as they intended to commit DOGSO.
#Post#: 51354--------------------------------------------------
Re: Forest v West Ham - R Jones
DIR By: Readingfan
Date: August 18, 2022, 3:56 pm
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--- Quote from: Leggy link ---
>
> [quote author=Readingfan link=topic=3886.msg51251#msg51251
date=1660654858]
> As a general point, it is an interesting hypothetical question
as to what impact the likelihood of a goalkeeper making a save
should have.
>
> Of course there have been many cases where a goalkeeper has
failed to make a save they would have been expected to do so -
De Gea on Saturday seems to have been the latest example. And we
have all seen many instances where a defender is sent off before
any shot on target has even been forthcoming.
>
> If say you were 50/50 as to whether or not the goalkeeper
might have made a save, would you lean towards red or yellow?
>
--- End Quote ---
50/50 - for me - does not meet the threshold of an "obvious"
goal-scoring opportunity.
[/quote]
It is an interesting discussion point.
I remember Vidic getting sent off by Alan Wiley when Liverpool
beat Man Utd 4-1 at Old Trafford in 2009 for fouling Gerrard. I
think most people felt the red card was right as Gerrard was
going directly through n goal just outside the penalty area, was
not at too wide an angle and would have been 1 on 1 with the
goalkeeper.
However, I do wonder for the average attacking player in such a
situation, how often you would actually expect them to score? Is
a goal generally more likely to result in a situation like that
where a player has not even taken a shot and might lose
control/be tackled/shoot off target compared to a decent shot on
target which is going to force the keeper into making a save and
potentially avoiding a rebound etc too?
#Post#: 51361--------------------------------------------------
Re: Forest v West Ham - R Jones
DIR By: JCFC
Date: August 19, 2022, 2:24 am
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As often, it depends on interpretation of the language.
Is "an obvious goal-scoring opportunity" to be taken as
an opportunity to score an obvious goal
or
an obvious opportunity to score a goal?
For what it is worth, I would favour the latter.
I wonder how the concept is translated into other languages.
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