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#Post#: 50197--------------------------------------------------
Re: Officials pay
DIR By: Affy_Moose
Date: July 18, 2022, 4:43 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: rustyref link ---
>
> Its all a bit chicken and egg anyway as Bobby Madden moved to
England because of his job. So if he was giving up his job he
wouldn't have moved to England at all.
>
> There isn't the money at League 1 and 2 to have full time
referees, and I'm far from convinced the referees would want it
anyway. It would be presumably lower than the Championship
retainer, and therefore probably lower than many of them get in
their current jobs. There's also the obvious risk of quitting a
job that you might have had for years, with great job security,
for one where one or two bad performances could see you "sacked"
at the end of the season, out of work and unable to pay the
bills.
>
--- End Quote ---
This is completely it - in a nutshell.
If we assume there would be a big enough improvement in
qualified officials to warrant paying FT wages, I doubt many
would realise the millions it would cost the leagues to pay for
it. Can you imagine declaring to L2 and NL teams that they need
to give up further income to pay for FT officials?
Fees are already publicly available, but no one cares enough to
look. If leagues moves to FT officials, you can bet those
values would become public knowledge and every mistake or issue
would be framed in the manner of "we get told to pay that much
for this?"
And as you say, I highly doubt the take up from officials would
be significant. To surrender job security would require a very
hefty increase in pay which makes the whole thing a non-starter.
#Post#: 50202--------------------------------------------------
Re: Officials pay
DIR By: nemesis
Date: July 19, 2022, 6:00 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: rustyref link ---
>
> [quote author=nemesis link=topic=3818.msg50191#msg50191
date=1658167049]
> [quote author=rustyref link=topic=3818.msg50187#msg50187
date=1658161129]
> Its all a bit chicken and egg anyway as Bobby Madden moved to
England because of his job. So if he was giving up his job he
wouldn't have moved to England at all.
>
> There isn't the money at League 1 and 2 to have full time
referees, and I'm far from convinced the referees would want it
anyway. It would be presumably lower than the Championship
retainer, and therefore probably lower than many of them get in
their current jobs. There's also the obvious risk of quitting a
job that you might have had for years, with great job security,
for one where one or two bad performances could see you "sacked"
at the end of the season, out of work and unable to pay the
bills.
>
--- End Quote ---
I've seen numerous instances of "one or two bad performances"
from full-time referees but don't recall too many sackings !
[/quote]
There have been lots of demotions over the years, but unlike
promotions, for obvious reasons, they don't publicise it.
[/quote]
"Lots" of sackings from the ranks of the full-time officials ?
Really ?
#Post#: 50207--------------------------------------------------
Re: Officials pay
DIR By: rustyref
Date: July 19, 2022, 11:21 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: nemesis link ---
>
> [quote author=rustyref link=topic=3818.msg50196#msg50196
date=1658179698]
> [quote author=nemesis link=topic=3818.msg50191#msg50191
date=1658167049]
> [quote author=rustyref link=topic=3818.msg50187#msg50187
date=1658161129]
> Its all a bit chicken and egg anyway as Bobby Madden moved to
England because of his job. So if he was giving up his job he
wouldn't have moved to England at all.
>
> There isn't the money at League 1 and 2 to have full time
referees, and I'm far from convinced the referees would want it
anyway. It would be presumably lower than the Championship
retainer, and therefore probably lower than many of them get in
their current jobs. There's also the obvious risk of quitting a
job that you might have had for years, with great job security,
for one where one or two bad performances could see you "sacked"
at the end of the season, out of work and unable to pay the
bills.
>
--- End Quote ---
I've seen numerous instances of "one or two bad performances"
from full-time referees but don't recall too many sackings !
[/quote]
There have been lots of demotions over the years, but unlike
promotions, for obvious reasons, they don't publicise it.
[/quote]
"Lots" of sackings from the ranks of the full-time officials ?
Really ?
[/quote]
OK, perhaps some was more appropriate than lots for the
professional game. There has been a lot of movement between L1
and L2a though, whether that would change or not if they had
professional contracts is anyone's guess.
#Post#: 50319--------------------------------------------------
Re: Officials pay
DIR By: DBLTFC
Date: July 23, 2022, 5:06 am
---------------------------------------------------------
"There isn't the money in Leagues One and Two". I hear you, but
my answer to that is why the heck not? There is enough money at
all levels of professional football to justify a decent
officiating budget every year. Especially with every manager and
pundit bemoaning officials performance every week. More money
and a pathway increases standards.
This is what I would do... we need to start paying these people
properly
18 x SG1 referees - £150,000 a year retainer + £1,500 a match
(£750 as a 4th official, £1,000 as a VAR)
32 x SG1 assistants - £60,000 a year + £700 per match
4 x SG1 dedicated VARs - £70,000 a year + £1,000 a match
20 x SG2 referees - £70,000 a year + £750 per match (£375 as a
4th)
36 x SG2 assistants - £35,000 a year + £375 per match
36 x SG3 ("NL") referees - £45,000 a year + £375 per match (£200
as a 4th)
60 x SG3 assistants - £25,000 a year + £200 per match
20 x National League referees - £28,000 a year + £200 per match
36 x National League assistants - £125 per match
That costs about £16M a season. A drop in the ocean in
comparison to everything else in the game.
#Post#: 50322--------------------------------------------------
Re: Officials pay
DIR By: Readingfan
Date: July 23, 2022, 5:59 am
---------------------------------------------------------
I think there needs to be more scope in the system to move
people between different levels. As Nemesis suggests, there seem
to be too many officials who become comfortable at a particular
level but do not seem to deliver consistently good performances
and are not especially progressing. It feels there are currently
various NL referees who are probably deserving of an opportunity
at SG2 level and might be more likely to progress than some
already on the list.
I am interested in what VAR will mean for the profession in the
long-term. It seems VAR will be expanded to at least
Championship level in the coming years, so they will need
officials to be VAR at that level. I can envisage more people
becoming full-time VARs over say the next 5-10 years.
I think it will also be interesting what impact it has on
Assistant Referees and how the scope of that role changes.
Semi-automated offside is being introduced to the World Cup and
you can only imagine that growing. I'm sure you're going to
still need some human input but I guess it might impact on the
ambitions of officials coming through if they feel their role is
being overtaken by technology. Of course assistants do more than
just judge offside and it might be that more emphasis is placed
on these aspects as time progresses.
#Post#: 50330--------------------------------------------------
Re: Officials pay
DIR By: nemesis
Date: July 23, 2022, 11:54 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Readingfan link ---
>
>
> ....
>
> Of course assistants do more than just judge offside and it
might be that more emphasis is placed on these aspects as time
progresses.
>
> ....
>
>
--- End Quote ---
Not that much more to be honest. Most seem reluctant to even
award a throw-in until they've seen the referee point one way or
the other.
As for indicating free-kicks, they are few and far in between.
One of my pet dislikes is Assistants flagging furiously after
the referee has blown for a foul but standing by doing nothing
otherwise. Assistants, in my experience, when they do actually
intervene it is usually to award a foul against a forward having
ignored frequent defensive transgressions.
#Post#: 50356--------------------------------------------------
Re: Officials pay
DIR By: rustyref
Date: July 24, 2022, 1:30 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: nemesis link ---
>
> [quote author=Readingfan link=topic=3818.msg50322#msg50322
date=1658573972]
>
> ....
>
> Of course assistants do more than just judge offside and it
might be that more emphasis is placed on these aspects as time
progresses.
>
> ....
>
>
--- End Quote ---
Not that much more to be honest. Most seem reluctant to even
award a throw-in until they've seen the referee point one way or
the other.
As for indicating free-kicks, they are few and far in between.
One of my pet dislikes is Assistants flagging furiously after
the referee has blown for a foul but standing by doing nothing
otherwise. Assistants, in my experience, when they do actually
intervene it is usually to award a foul against a forward having
ignored frequent defensive transgressions.
[/quote]
Just because they aren’t flagging doesn’t means they aren’t
assisting, comms has changed that. They will generally only flag
for a foul if it wouldn’t really be credible for the referee to
give it.
On throw ins that is just teamwork, and certainly better than
one signalling one way and the other the opposite way. And
again, they will often be talking over comms before either
signals.
#Post#: 50362--------------------------------------------------
Re: Officials pay
DIR By: Affy_Moose
Date: July 25, 2022, 6:33 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: DBLTFC link ---
>
> "There isn't the money in Leagues One and Two". I hear you,
but my answer to that is why the heck not? There is enough money
at all levels of professional football to justify a decent
officiating budget every year. Especially with every manager and
pundit bemoaning officials performance every week. More money
and a pathway increases standards.
>
> This is what I would do... we need to start paying these
people properly
>
> 18 x SG1 referees - £150,000 a year retainer + £1,500 a match
(£750 as a 4th official, £1,000 as a VAR)
> 32 x SG1 assistants - £60,000 a year + £700 per match
> 4 x SG1 dedicated VARs - £70,000 a year + £1,000 a match
>
> 20 x SG2 referees - £70,000 a year + £750 per match (£375 as a
4th)
> 36 x SG2 assistants - £35,000 a year + £375 per match
>
> 36 x SG3 ("NL") referees - £45,000 a year + £375 per match
(£200 as a 4th)
> 60 x SG3 assistants - £25,000 a year + £200 per match
>
> 20 x National League referees - £28,000 a year + £200 per
match
> 36 x National League assistants - £125 per match
>
> That costs about £16M a season. A drop in the ocean in
comparison to everything else in the game.
>
--- End Quote ---
You aren't going to get the current NL and League referees for
those salaries. Remember, those referees already have secure
jobs that most will pay in excess of the rates you have listed.
Would you give up your job to earn £25k a year as a League SG3
assistant referee?
I suspect there is little-to-no-appetite for officials to go FT
at those levels, and the marginal benefits certainly won't
outweigh the costs.
#Post#: 50363--------------------------------------------------
Re: Officials pay
DIR By: lincs22
Date: July 25, 2022, 6:35 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: DBLTFC link ---
>
> "There isn't the money in Leagues One and Two". I hear you,
but my answer to that is why the heck not? There is enough money
at all levels of professional football to justify a decent
officiating budget every year. Especially with every manager and
pundit bemoaning officials performance every week. More money
and a pathway increases standards.
>
> This is what I would do... we need to start paying these
people properly
>
> 18 x SG1 referees - £150,000 a year retainer + £1,500 a match
(£750 as a 4th official, £1,000 as a VAR)
> 32 x SG1 assistants - £60,000 a year + £700 per match
> 4 x SG1 dedicated VARs - £70,000 a year + £1,000 a match
>
> 20 x SG2 referees - £70,000 a year + £750 per match (£375 as a
4th)
> 36 x SG2 assistants - £35,000 a year + £375 per match
>
> 36 x SG3 ("NL") referees - £45,000 a year + £375 per match
(£200 as a 4th)
> 60 x SG3 assistants - £25,000 a year + £200 per match
>
> 20 x National League referees - £28,000 a year + £200 per
match
> 36 x National League assistants - £125 per match
>
> That costs about £16M a season. A drop in the ocean in
comparison to everything else in the game.
>
--- End Quote ---
For a number of people I know at Level 2A , these salary levels
would not be sufficient for them to leave their full-time
employment. They are in professional practices and will be
earning well above these levels now, with the opportunities to
continue their career. Leaving to join as a FT referee would
kill that career development. The FA/PMGOL need to decide if
they want the best officials or the most available officials
which they can train up. This has been the decision for a number
of years..
Joe Worrell had to take a huge pay cut to become a FT referee in
the beginning of the EPL. He was a partner in a firm of
Chartered Accountants ... I don't think a person in their late
20's would make that choice now, they would stay as they are.
that is why so many referees coming up have jobs within the
CFA's.
#Post#: 50364--------------------------------------------------
Re: Officials pay
DIR By: Affy_Moose
Date: July 25, 2022, 6:35 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: nemesis link ---
>
> [quote author=Readingfan link=topic=3818.msg50322#msg50322
date=1658573972]
>
> ....
>
> Of course assistants do more than just judge offside and it
might be that more emphasis is placed on these aspects as time
progresses.
>
> ....
>
>
--- End Quote ---
Not that much more to be honest. Most seem reluctant to even
award a throw-in until they've seen the referee point one way or
the other.
As for indicating free-kicks, they are few and far in between.
One of my pet dislikes is Assistants flagging furiously after
the referee has blown for a foul but standing by doing nothing
otherwise. Assistants, in my experience, when they do actually
intervene it is usually to award a foul against a forward having
ignored frequent defensive transgressions.
[/quote]
It depends on what level you are talking about. If it's senior
football with comms equipment, outwith throw ins on their
diagonal and offside decisions with no interpretation required
for interference, 95% of Assistant Referee decision making is
communicated through the comms equipment before they flag. That
is engrained and trained - the AR is to assist, so will almost
always communicate first before making a decision that cannot
easily be reversed out of (there is nothing worse as an AR than
'giving' a foul and being over-ruled by the referee).
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