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#Post#: 50046--------------------------------------------------
France v Italy - Rebecca Welsh (Eng)
DIR By: Observeref8
Date: July 10, 2022, 3:29 pm
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Oh no … Chris Kavanagh what have you done making her go to watch
the video ? She was correct with the straight red studs into the
midriff making no contact with the ball, leave the red … but you
make her go over and watch the reply and change to yellow…. This
is why no English VAR at World Cup, and Kav has prob cost Welsh
any further games at Euro 2022. I really felt she was going to
stick with her red card.
#Post#: 50048--------------------------------------------------
Re: France v Italy - Rebecca Welsh (Eng)
DIR By: Midlander
Date: July 10, 2022, 3:56 pm
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Such a shame she was called over. RW had the decision spot on
and Hallie just another official to be undone by VAR
#Post#: 50049--------------------------------------------------
Re: France v Italy - Rebecca Welsh (Eng)
DIR By: Observeref8
Date: July 10, 2022, 4:03 pm
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Fully agreed @midlander it was subjective call not a wrong
decision, imo Kavanagh is a soft referee so in his Opinion it’s
yellow but again VAR is not subjective, it was not a wrong red
card in any stretch ! Shame because Rebecca was having a
excellent game ….. why oh why did he feel the need to get
involved
#Post#: 50051--------------------------------------------------
Re: France v Italy - Rebecca Welsh (Eng)
DIR By: bmb
Date: July 10, 2022, 5:40 pm
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Red card - he is going to get involved, that's the rules. We
don't know what was said between them, for example she may have
said red for a kick to the head and he will have had to say to
her that there was no kick to the head, contact was with the
chest, which would then automatically trigger an OFR as that
would be a matter of fact and not based on subjectiveness. This
is where hearing the comms would be helpful as we would know
what was said & why the decision to review was actually made
instead of just assuming it was down to a difference in
subjectiveness. He did not MAKE her change her decision though,
he may well have recommended an OFR, for whatever reason, based
on what she said to him over the comms, but she CHOSE to change
her decision. She had a choice, stick with her original
decision or change it. Recommending an OFR does not
automatically change a decision, there are several incidences
where a referee sticks with their decision following an OFR. Red
for me though in my subjective opinion.
#Post#: 50052--------------------------------------------------
Re: France v Italy - Rebecca Welsh (Eng)
DIR By: guest42
Date: July 11, 2022, 1:39 am
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I think that
--- Quote from: bmb link ---
>
> This is where hearing the comms would be helpful as we would
know what was said & why the decision to review was actually
made instead of just assuming it was down to a difference in
subjectiveness.
>
--- End Quote ---
I think as of April this year - apart from the NBA, football is
the only major sport where the officials are not able to be
heard in game or explain their decisions via microphone to the
stadium.
Major League Baseball were the last other major sport to
institute Stadium Announcement on Replay Decisions - and that
was changed as of this season.
It really needs to change.
#Post#: 50055--------------------------------------------------
Re: France v Italy - Rebecca Welsh (Eng)
DIR By: Leggy
Date: July 11, 2022, 5:13 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: bmb link ---
>
> Red card - he is going to get involved, that's the rules. We
don't know what was said between them, for example she may have
said red for a kick to the head and he will have had to say to
her that there was no kick to the head, contact was with the
chest, which would then automatically trigger an OFR as that
would be a matter of fact and not based on subjectiveness. This
is where hearing the comms would be helpful as we would know
what was said & why the decision to review was actually made
instead of just assuming it was down to a difference in
subjectiveness. He did not MAKE her change her decision though,
he may well have recommended an OFR, for whatever reason, based
on what she said to him over the comms, but she CHOSE to change
her decision. She had a choice, stick with her original
decision or change it. Recommending an OFR does not
automatically change a decision, there are several incidences
where a referee sticks with their decision following an OFR. Red
for me though in my subjective opinion.
>
--- End Quote ---
I am sorry, but I could not disagree more.
Once CK called RW over for an OFR she was stuck between a rock
and a hard place. Whatever conversation took place, by calling
her over he is saying "I believe you are wrong". If she agrees
then it confirms that the original decision was incorrect. Is
she disagrees then she is going against the accepted wisdom of a
male FIFA referee operating as a VAR. Either outcome is
potentially tournament ending.
If EUFA deem that their premier woman's competition can be
officiated by female referees, then they should have had the
courage of their convictions and used female referees for VAR.
To have male referees as VARs in this competition just looks
like EUFA do not believe the women can handle it and they need
men to look after them and make the big decisions for them. We
all know that (probably) is not the case, but to the outside,
uneducated world; that is how it will look.
EUFA in general and CK in particular have seriously set back the
cause of female referees in the last 24 hours.
By the way, the decision was perfectly reasonable. The degree
of force, where contact was made makes the argument for a foul
challenge that endangers the safety of an opponent. A yellow
card would also have been supportable - another case of
"umpire's call". The "umpire" in this case should have been the
woman refereeing the match, not the man looking at TV screens.
#Post#: 50056--------------------------------------------------
Re: France v Italy - Rebecca Welsh (Eng)
DIR By: bmb
Date: July 11, 2022, 5:50 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: BAFRA #217 link ---
>
> I think that [quote author=bmb
link=topic=3814.msg50051#msg50051 date=1657492854]
> This is where hearing the comms would be helpful as we would
know what was said & why the decision to review was actually
made instead of just assuming it was down to a difference in
subjectiveness.
>
--- End Quote ---
I think as of April this year - apart from the NBA, football is
the only major sport where the officials are not able to be
heard in game or explain their decisions via microphone to the
stadium.
Major League Baseball were the last other major sport to
institute Stadium Announcement on Replay Decisions - and that
was changed as of this season.
It really needs to change.
[/quote]
Hopefully Howard Web will introduce it here when he takes over
the reigns. I'd like to see a similar show to the one they do in
the USA where they show the incidents along with playing the
comms. It clears so much up.
#Post#: 50058--------------------------------------------------
Re: France v Italy - Rebecca Welsh (Eng)
DIR By: jacksamuel21
Date: July 11, 2022, 6:30 am
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Turned it off before the red card so I cannot comment on that
but it was good to see Sian Massey Ellis back on linesman duty.
#Post#: 50060--------------------------------------------------
Re: France v Italy - Rebecca Welsh (Eng)
DIR By: Mikael W
Date: July 11, 2022, 7:13 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Observeref8 link ---
>
> Fully agreed @midlander it was subjective call not a wrong
decision, imo Kavanagh is a soft referee so in his Opinion it’s
yellow but again VAR is not subjective, it was not a wrong red
card in any stretch ! Shame because Rebecca was having a
excellent game ….. why oh why did he feel the need to get
involved
>
--- End Quote ---
Observeref I really like your comments (idk if you work in
PGMOL/FA but they would certainly benefit from a critical
thinker such as yourself) but I'd disagree quite strongly with
calling Welch's performance "excellent". She struggled actually
quite badly IMO. Though one must say it was a tough game to ref.
For all the research about tactics of Collina etc, sometimes a
bit of 'nous' actually goes a lot further. At the last two
women's EUROs, by far the most difficult to referee each time:
Italy. When handling their games, you have to be tough, and not
allow them any leeway.
Welch started well with the caution for reckless
treading-on-foot foul (16'), but began to lose her way after
that. Her foul recognition seemed a bit hesitant to me, such as
the clear kicking foul only given after Watson's shout on the
comms (29'). The deliberate foul by France no.6 (27') - warning
given - was a sign of things to come.
Welch had to clamp down on (Italy's) frustrated and rough play
in order to survive this game, and she didn't take the hint at
all:
41' - missed YC for clear tactical foul by Italy no.3; terrible
choice to only give a verbal warning
44' - reckless foul by Italy no.11 (you could even hear crowd
grasp), Welch didn't really know what to do, freekick only
52' - Italy no.7 should be sent off (excessive force), instead
only rather passively given caution
54' - very reckless foul by France no.14 not even given as a
freekick, close to SFP
To be honest, it was very easily predictable that a foul like
Gama's crazy one would occur. The cherry on top of course is
Kavanagh's ridiculous intervention (edited insult not needed to
emphasize point thankyou ).
UEFA shouldn't really have much option but to reject Welch's
performance - she should only carry on fourth official's work /
be 'sent home' hereafter. Kavanagh should join her.
#Post#: 50062--------------------------------------------------
Re: France v Italy - Rebecca Welsh (Eng)
DIR By: Mikael W
Date: July 11, 2022, 12:28 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Mikael W link ---
>
> (edited insult not needed to emphasize point thankyou ).
>
--- End Quote ---
I genuinely didn't mean it as a flippant insult so much as a
considered remark. I just see him as the perfect representation
of exactly the kind of referee PGMOL have wanted to create in
recent years: only one setting (staying in the background), no
charisma, unable to detect SFPs/VCs (even as VMO). In a word -
mediocre. But admit it was strongly/provokatively worded and bow
to the editorial judgement of the team (of course!).
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