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       #Post#: 49515--------------------------------------------------
       Re: Carlos Del Cerro Grande : Germany vs England 
   DIR By: Readingfan
       Date: June 8, 2022, 11:12 am
       ---------------------------------------------------------
       --- Quote from: adcr85 link ---
       >
       > Go on then, I'll keep biting, I can see the other POV but just
       don't fully agree
       >
       > As per the pictures
       >
       > [attach=1]
       > As Grealish plays the ball (top image) the defender about 8-10
       yards ahead has to stretch to make contact with the ball (bottom
       image) as if he doesn't the ball will go through to the attacker
       behind him.
       >
       >
       > The ball then deflects and fall to Kane who IMO has gained an
       advantage by being in this offside position when Grealish played
       the ball and is therfore offside
       >
       >
       > One comment of 'The defender has ample time to consider
       playing the ball, and unfortunately plays the ball to Kane.  The
       quality of the play, or the intention is not relevant.' To me 8
       yards from Grealish fizzing a pass isn't 'ample time' and you
       can see from his stretch he's not in a natural position to play
       the ball so this is a deflection/block not a deliberate playing
       of the ball.
       >
       > To add a further note of confusion what would the decision
       have been if the player (apologies can;t see from image who -
       but in inside left channel) who the pass was attempted to had
       also been in an offside position? Would we still say no offside?
       Because to me trying to pass to someone who is in an offside
       postition, and then it deflacts to someone else who is should
       definitly see a flag go up - but I feel not all wouldd agree.
       >
       --- End Quote ---
       Your description of the distance and the fact the player
       stretched to play the ball to stop it going through to Kane
       certainly makes it sound like it was a deliberate play as
       opposed to it inadvertently hitting him.
       I do have sympathy with defenders in this situation as they
       often can't know if an attacking player is offside (or, in a
       non-VAR game, if the correct decision will be given if they are
       offside.) Therefore, they often need to make some form of
       attempt to intercept the ball.
       I can certainly appreciate the overall argument that perhaps the
       law should require the defender to have a degree of control over
       making an attempted pass as opposed to not quite being able to
       intercept a pass. But that potentially creates more ambiguity
       and might be difficult to word.
       #Post#: 49519--------------------------------------------------
       Re: Carlos Del Cerro Grande : Germany vs England 
   DIR By: rustyref
       Date: June 8, 2022, 1:29 pm
       ---------------------------------------------------------
       --- Quote from: jacksamuel21 link ---
       >
       > [quote author=Acme Thunderer link=topic=3776.msg49501#msg49501
       date=1654674023]
       > Soft but replays show that contact was made, therefore penalty
       award was correct.
       >
       --- End Quote ---
       Contact does not equal foul though. There was minimal contact
       and he had ignored many more blatant fouls all game. Kane was
       also on the way down already. Also, I don't think it was
       deliberate so should just be a coming together so no foul.
       [/quote]
       There is absolutely no requirement for a foul to be deliverate
       to be given, hasn't been for many years.
       #Post#: 49520--------------------------------------------------
       Re: Carlos Del Cerro Grande : Germany vs England 
   DIR By: rustyref
       Date: June 8, 2022, 1:47 pm
       ---------------------------------------------------------
       --- Quote from: adcr85 link ---
       >
       > Go on then, I'll keep biting, I can see the other POV but just
       don't fully agree
       >
       > As per the pictures
       >
       > [attach=1]
       > As Grealish plays the ball (top image) the defender about 8-10
       yards ahead has to stretch to make contact with the ball (bottom
       image) as if he doesn't the ball will go through to the attacker
       behind him.
       >
       >
       > The ball then deflects and fall to Kane who IMO has gained an
       advantage by being in this offside position when Grealish played
       the ball and is therfore offside
       >
       >
       > One comment of 'The defender has ample time to consider
       playing the ball, and unfortunately plays the ball to Kane.  The
       quality of the play, or the intention is not relevant.' To me 8
       yards from Grealish fizzing a pass isn't 'ample time' and you
       can see from his stretch he's not in a natural position to play
       the ball so this is a deflection/block not a deliberate playing
       of the ball.
       >
       > To add a further note of confusion what would the decision
       have been if the player (apologies can;t see from image who -
       but in inside left channel) who the pass was attempted to had
       also been in an offside position? Would we still say no offside?
       Because to me trying to pass to someone who is in an offside
       postition, and then it deflacts to someone else who is should
       definitly see a flag go up - but I feel not all wouldd agree.
       >
       --- End Quote ---
       You've used words that mean it can only be onside, and I quote
       directly ...
       the defender about 8-10 yards ahead has to stretch to make
       contact with the ball
       That stretching can only have been a deliberate act, which means
       he has deliberately played the ball and that resets offside.  I
       don't like the law as it stands, and as an ex-defender I would
       have hated it, but it is absolutely clear that this cannot be
       offside.
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