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#Post#: 49502--------------------------------------------------
Re: Carlos Del Cerro Grande : Germany vs England
DIR By: jacksamuel21
Date: June 8, 2022, 3:20 am
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--- Quote from: Acme Thunderer link ---
>
> Soft but replays show that contact was made, therefore penalty
award was correct.
>
--- End Quote ---
Contact does not equal foul though. There was minimal contact
and he had ignored many more blatant fouls all game. Kane was
also on the way down already. Also, I don't think it was
deliberate so should just be a coming together so no foul.
#Post#: 49503--------------------------------------------------
Re: Carlos Del Cerro Grande : Germany vs England
DIR By: adcr85
Date: June 8, 2022, 3:32 am
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Personally I don't interpret the offside law in the same way as
some here
Coming so soon after the decision in the CL final when 2
opposing players slide in to tackle the ball, both make separate
contact with the ball but is deemed 'non deliberate', we now
have a situation where 1 player stretches to intercept, makes
slight contact diverting the ball not where he intended and it
is deemed 'deliberate'
To me both needed to be treated the same way, the word
'deliberate' causing as much confusion as 'clear and obvious'. I
can see a re-writing to say any contact from an opponent re-sets
the offside to stop this confusion moving forwards
#Post#: 49504--------------------------------------------------
Re: Carlos Del Cerro Grande : Germany vs England
DIR By: Affy_Moose
Date: June 8, 2022, 3:44 am
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--- Quote from: adcr85 link ---
>
> Personally I don't interpret the offside law in the same way
as some here
>
> Coming so soon after the decision in the CL final when 2
opposing players slide in to tackle the ball, both make separate
contact with the ball but is deemed 'non deliberate', we now
have a situation where 1 player stretches to intercept, makes
slight contact diverting the ball not where he intended and it
is deemed 'deliberate'
>
> To me both needed to be treated the same way, the word
'deliberate' causing as much confusion as 'clear and obvious'. I
can see a re-writing to say any contact from an opponent re-sets
the offside to stop this confusion moving forwards
>
--- End Quote ---
I can empathise with some of the edge cases on 'deliberate play'
but this was almost as clear an example as you can get, beyond a
defender making a mistaken pass to a goalkeeper.
The defender has ample time to consider playing the ball, and
unfortunately plays the ball to Kane. The quality of the play,
or the intention is not relevant.
I'd also suggest that the term 'deliberate' isn't badly
understood. Everything is effectively deliberate, if it is not
a deflection or a save.
The problem with terms like 'clear and obvious' is that most
people try to interpret it as a layperson using a
dictionary-like definition, when in fact, it isn't a term with
open interpretation. See also gaining an 'advantage' under Law
11. 'Advantage' is defined and codified as to exactly what it
means. 'Clear and obvious' is similar defined.
#Post#: 49505--------------------------------------------------
Re: Carlos Del Cerro Grande : Germany vs England
DIR By: PhiltheRef
Date: June 8, 2022, 3:58 am
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I'm not disputing that there was, at some juncture, contact.
My point is that Kane had already started his seemingly
intentional fall well before the contact.
It is something for which sadly he has "form" and which numerous
correspondents on this very site have expressed vexation about
as a general rule
#Post#: 49506--------------------------------------------------
Re: Carlos Del Cerro Grande : Germany vs England
DIR By: guest308
Date: June 8, 2022, 4:25 am
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It seems referees are getting a taste for soft boiled eggs ;)
#Post#: 49507--------------------------------------------------
Re: Carlos Del Cerro Grande : Germany vs England
DIR By: Leggy
Date: June 8, 2022, 4:35 am
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Notwithstanding Kane's "previous" in this department, I do not
think he instigated the contact or was on the way down before
contact with the opponent.
His opponent was behind him and going in a different direction
to Kane who was looking in the direction of where the ball was
coming from. As Kane drew back his foot to try and strike the
ball, the opponent accidently (but clearly) caught the foot
preventing him from attempting to strike the ball.
I believe that the correct decision was (eventually) reached. I
also believe that just because someone may have attained a
reputation for "making the most" of any contact it does not
follow that that same person can never be the victim of a foul
tackle ever again.
#Post#: 49508--------------------------------------------------
Re: Carlos Del Cerro Grande : Germany vs England
DIR By: Leggy
Date: June 8, 2022, 4:37 am
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PS: I am not a Spurs fan, was not too fussed about the outcome
of last night's game and do not like eggs - soft or hard
boiled!!
#Post#: 49509--------------------------------------------------
Re: Carlos Del Cerro Grande : Germany vs England
DIR By: JCFC
Date: June 8, 2022, 4:50 am
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--- Quote from: Leggy link ---
>
> PS: I ... do not like eggs - soft or hard boiled!!
>
--- End Quote ---
Better change your user name to Ly, then. ;)
#Post#: 49510--------------------------------------------------
Re: Carlos Del Cerro Grande : Germany vs England
DIR By: aaa
Date: June 8, 2022, 5:30 am
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--- Quote from: adcr85 link ---
>
>
> To me both needed to be treated the same way, the word
'deliberate' causing as much confusion as 'clear and obvious'. I
can see a re-writing to say any contact from an opponent re-sets
the offside to stop this confusion moving forwards
>
--- End Quote ---
The problem we might have is that attacking team will have
player in an offside position and "intentionally" hit the ball
against defending team and hope it falls on the feet of their
teammate (in an offside position).
I don't have an answer for current law so I'm sticking with it.
#Post#: 49514--------------------------------------------------
Re: Carlos Del Cerro Grande : Germany vs England
DIR By: adcr85
Date: June 8, 2022, 10:06 am
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Go on then, I'll keep biting, I can see the other POV but just
don't fully agree
As per the pictures
[attach=1]
As Grealish plays the ball (top image) the defender about 8-10
yards ahead has to stretch to make contact with the ball (bottom
image) as if he doesn't the ball will go through to the attacker
behind him.
The ball then deflects and fall to Kane who IMO has gained an
advantage by being in this offside position when Grealish played
the ball and is therfore offside
One comment of 'The defender has ample time to consider playing
the ball, and unfortunately plays the ball to Kane. The quality
of the play, or the intention is not relevant.' To me 8 yards
from Grealish fizzing a pass isn't 'ample time' and you can see
from his stretch he's not in a natural position to play the ball
so this is a deflection/block not a deliberate playing of the
ball.
To add a further note of confusion what would the decision have
been if the player (apologies can;t see from image who - but in
inside left channel) who the pass was attempted to had also been
in an offside position? Would we still say no offside? Because
to me trying to pass to someone who is in an offside postition,
and then it deflacts to someone else who is should definitly see
a flag go up - but I feel not all wouldd agree.
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